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How to make object smooth? [message #50746] Tue, 03 July 2012 15:38 UTC Go to next message
avatar Pico  is currently offline Pico
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I have some questions concerning how smooth this object will be when printed. It has facets which I don't want printed, it has to be rounded. It was designed in 3ds max, and I have applied subdivision to it, it now has 16,344 triangles, but it seems that only smooths the edges of the facets, it doesn't smooth the entire object. Several times I've increased the subdivisions but crashed the application. I suppose I could increase the subdivision to the point just before the application crashes but it seems that even when increasing the subdivision, I still end up with facets with rounded edges. How do I make this rounded? Thanks.

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Re: How to make object smooth? [message #50748 is a reply to message #50746 ] Tue, 03 July 2012 15:43 UTC Go to previous messageGo to next message
avatar Youknowwho4eva is currently online Youknowwho4eva
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It depends on the intended material.


I learned a long time ago the wisest thing I can do is be on my own side, be an advocate for myself and others like me. -Maya Angelou
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Re: How to make object smooth? [message #50750 is a reply to message #50746 ] Tue, 03 July 2012 15:57 UTC Go to previous messageGo to next message
avatar Pico  is currently offline Pico
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Thanks for the lightening fast response. I intend on using white, strong and flexible.
Re: How to make object smooth? [message #50757 is a reply to message #50746 ] Tue, 03 July 2012 17:36 UTC Go to previous messageGo to next message
avatar Youknowwho4eva is currently online Youknowwho4eva
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It depends on the size, but most of those lines will probably show. You could use Polished WSF and that would make it a lot smoother.


I learned a long time ago the wisest thing I can do is be on my own side, be an advocate for myself and others like me. -Maya Angelou
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Re: How to make object smooth? [message #50758 is a reply to message #50757 ] Tue, 03 July 2012 17:45 UTC Go to previous messageGo to next message
avatar recall  is currently offline recall
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before models get printed, do they go through a smoothing process? or are they converted to subD meshes?

i'm concerned about faceting as well.

i have a model i built in ZBrush which i then decimated to about 400k polys. there's minor faceting. will it get rounded off in say, glazed ceramic?

thanks for any info!


r

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Re: How to make object smooth? [message #50760 is a reply to message #50746 ] Tue, 03 July 2012 17:52 UTC Go to previous messageGo to next message
avatar Youknowwho4eva is currently online Youknowwho4eva
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Shapeways doesn't do any software smoothing, but with ceramics you will see smoothing because of the glaze, see the ceramics design rules page for more details


I learned a long time ago the wisest thing I can do is be on my own side, be an advocate for myself and others like me. -Maya Angelou
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Re: How to make object smooth? [message #50762 is a reply to message #50746 ] Tue, 03 July 2012 18:50 UTC Go to previous messageGo to next message
avatar Pico  is currently offline Pico
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Size is about 5.5" X 1.75" X1.9". This for a car model, so it will have finishing work done to it; as sanding with fine sandpaper to smooth the printer steps, primering, more fine sanding and a finish coat of paint and clear coat paint, which will make the object reflective. The car is quite rounded, so it's necessary to not have facets. I don't want to spent time building up the facets with filler putty, and then sanding them down. I know I'll have a bit of finish work but want to keep it minimal.
Re: How to make object smooth? [message #50763 is a reply to message #50746 ] Tue, 03 July 2012 18:56 UTC Go to previous messageGo to next message
avatar Youknowwho4eva is currently online Youknowwho4eva
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Like I said, order in Polished WSF. It'll be put through a tumbler that will reduce the faceting. I know there is a way to subdivide it in blender, I'm just not sure how to do that. I know how to do it in Sculptris if you can export to OBJ (or export to anything blender imports and export as OBJ). In my experience these programs can handle more triangles than my software of choice (keycreator)


I learned a long time ago the wisest thing I can do is be on my own side, be an advocate for myself and others like me. -Maya Angelou
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Re: How to make object smooth? [message #50766 is a reply to message #50763 ] Tue, 03 July 2012 19:24 UTC Go to previous messageGo to next message
avatar Pico  is currently offline Pico
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I can export as OBJ from 3ds max and have Sculptris so I'll try that. Thanks and I'll check back later with the results.
Re: How to make object smooth? [message #50788 is a reply to message #50766 ] Wed, 04 July 2012 08:23 UTC Go to previous messageGo to next message
avatar Dragoman  is currently offline Dragoman
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If you make the facets smaller than the "minimum detail" resolution of the material they should appear smooth when printed. For WSF, 0.1 mm sized should be fine.

Greetings
Karl Heinz
Re: How to make object smooth? [message #50792 is a reply to message #50746 ] Wed, 04 July 2012 10:49 UTC Go to previous messageGo to next message
avatar Pico  is currently offline Pico
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Karl, Thanks for that advice, I will be subdividing the object in Sculptris and see how that looks.
Re: How to make object smooth? [message #50811 is a reply to message #50746 ] Wed, 04 July 2012 18:52 UTC Go to previous messageGo to next message
avatar recall  is currently offline recall
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how big of a mesh is reasonable to upload and print?

as long as it's under 65mb on disk, could the mesh be over a million polygons?

is there a "between x and y" number of polygon range?


r

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Re: How to make object smooth? [message #50817 is a reply to message #50811 ] Wed, 04 July 2012 21:32 UTC Go to previous messageGo to next message
avatar Pico  is currently offline Pico
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I have attempted to load the file into Sculptris but got a "too many triangles" message. I rework a part that had 6 triangles converging at a point (hoping that was the problem) but got the message again. Googling the problem, I found something about loading into Blender and something about triangles but it was beyond me.
Re: How to make object smooth? [message #50818 is a reply to message #50746 ] Thu, 05 July 2012 00:28 UTC Go to previous messageGo to next message
avatar Pico  is currently offline Pico
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I have subdivided the object in 3ds max to about 400,000 polys and downloaded it to Shapeways. The render with 400,000 polys is identical to the render with 2900 polys. Why is that? I thought the greater the subdivision, the rounder the object.
Re: How to make object smooth? [message #50819 is a reply to message #50818 ] Thu, 05 July 2012 00:43 UTC Go to previous messageGo to next message
avatar recall  is currently offline recall
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can you specify what render you're talking about? you mean the preview on Shapeway's site?

do they look the same before exporting them from Max or Sculptris?

you could check if you have any edges that are "creased" or try softening the normals (not sure how to do that in Max...)


r

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Re: How to make object smooth? [message #50822 is a reply to message #50746 ] Thu, 05 July 2012 01:26 UTC Go to previous messageGo to next message
avatar Pico  is currently offline Pico
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Yes, the render in Shapeways. They look much smoother in Max before exporting. I understand when printed the model will look the same as the render in Shapeways. When making the model(this is a car model) I could sand off the creases, but I'm concerned about the flat spots on the surface. I don't want to spend and lot of time loading on putty and sanding it. This is the first time I've made an organic model so I don't know what to expect.
Re: How to make object smooth? [message #50823 is a reply to message #50822 ] Thu, 05 July 2012 01:36 UTC Go to previous messageGo to next message
avatar recall  is currently offline recall
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might be helpful to see images of what youre seeing..


r

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Re: How to make object smooth? [message #50825 is a reply to message #50746 ] Thu, 05 July 2012 01:46 UTC Go to previous messageGo to next message
avatar Pico  is currently offline Pico
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This is the image of the object with nearly 400,000 polys. Size: 5.5"X 1.7" X 1.8" ( 14 X 4.44 X 4.56 mm)

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Re: How to make object smooth? [message #50826 is a reply to message #50746 ] Thu, 05 July 2012 01:47 UTC Go to previous messageGo to next message
avatar Pico  is currently offline Pico
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This image is of the object with 2856 polys, same size.

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Re: How to make object smooth? [message #50827 is a reply to message #50746 ] Thu, 05 July 2012 01:49 UTC Go to previous messageGo to next message
avatar Pico  is currently offline Pico
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Here it is in Max, 399,318 polys.

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Re: How to make object smooth? [message #50828 is a reply to message #50746 ] Thu, 05 July 2012 01:53 UTC Go to previous messageGo to next message
avatar Pico  is currently offline Pico
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This is the file in Max , with 2856 polys.

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Re: How to make object smooth? [message #50831 is a reply to message #50746 ] Thu, 05 July 2012 02:22 UTC Go to previous messageGo to next message
avatar recall  is currently offline recall
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how are you arriving at the model w/ MORE polys in Max? an overall subdivide? (i'm a maya user, so not familiar w/ the ways of max, but they function nearly identically)

it looks like your 400k mesh didn't get exported from max

can you check the file sizes of the exports - the 400k obj (are you using obj? either way...) should be larger than the 3k one

perhaps you have to subdivide your 3k mesh in max and then delete history before exporting to disk?


r

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Re: How to make object smooth? [message #50832 is a reply to message #50746 ] Thu, 05 July 2012 02:37 UTC Go to previous messageGo to next message
avatar Pico  is currently offline Pico
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In Max, you can subdivide with a modifier. My basic file, the low poly one, is .27 MB. The 400,000 poly file is 19 MB. It definitely got exported. I'm uncertain what you mean by deleting history, this is the first time I've used 3ds max so I'm at a basic level of understanding. Thanks.
Re: How to make object smooth? [message #50833 is a reply to message #50832 ] Thu, 05 July 2012 02:40 UTC Go to previous messageGo to next message
avatar recall  is currently offline recall
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what does it look like when you re-import the 400k mesh back into max?


r

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Re: How to make object smooth? [message #50834 is a reply to message #50746 ] Thu, 05 July 2012 02:45 UTC Go to previous messageGo to next message
avatar Pico  is currently offline Pico
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Exactly the same. I store it in my documents and if I want to refine it or take an image of it, just reimport it to Max. No difference. Off to sleep now , check in tomorrow. Thanks .
Re: How to make object smooth? [message #50835 is a reply to message #50834 ] Thu, 05 July 2012 03:40 UTC Go to previous messageGo to next message
avatar stonysmith  is currently offline stonysmith
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It doesn't have a lot to do with just increasing the number of polygons. There is a big difference between sub-dividing faces versus smoothing a surface. I can't speak to 3ds Max, but here is an image that might help explain it:
index.php?t=getfile&id=18230&private=0

All three meshes here started with the a sphere with 8 facets of lattitude, and 8 facets of longitude. The green in the middle is the original unmodified mesh.

On the left, you'll see in yellow that each face was cut into quarters, but the center vertex was placed in the plane of the original face. That leaves you with a more complex mesh, but no smoother than you started with.

On the right (I used Truespace - Subdivision tool) you can see that each face is again cut into quarters, but the tool in this case placed the center vertex out a little bit.. based upon an average of the normals of the adjacent faces. It generates a much smoother mesh.

If you take both of these techniques and continue them.. the mesh on the left will never get smoother, but the mesh on the right would become almost spherical.

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Patience, Persistance, Politeness - the 3Ps will help us get us to Perfect Printed Products
Re: How to make object smooth? [message #50836 is a reply to message #50835 ] Thu, 05 July 2012 03:51 UTC Go to previous messageGo to next message
avatar stonysmith  is currently offline stonysmith
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Another thing... many of today's modern 3d drawing tools are also capable of rendering fairly pleasing looking models. By default, many of these tools have "Smoothing" turned ON.

Take a look at this image: Both meshes are setup with 8 facets of longitude and 8 facets of lattitude.
index.php?t=getfile&id=18231&private=0

In the one on the left, the paint option was selected with a option of "Smoothing", in the mesh on the right, I selected a paint option of "Faceted".

I strongly suggest to anyone designing for 3d printing that they turn OFF the smoothing options when designing their models.. having it on misleads you into assuming that the mesh is smoother than it actually is, and thereby that the printer is going to smooth your model more than it actually will. By leaving the render "Faceted", you can see better what the effect of adding additional polygons to the mesh will do to the model as it is printed.

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Patience, Persistance, Politeness - the 3Ps will help us get us to Perfect Printed Products
Re: How to make object smooth? [message #50846 is a reply to message #50746 ] Thu, 05 July 2012 12:52 UTC Go to previous messageGo to next message
avatar Pico  is currently offline Pico
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That's what has been bugging me! As I understand it, you apply the subdivision tool to smooth out the object for printing. But when I did that, it subdivided the flat faces and did not smooth it out. I will play around with 3ds max some more to see if I can figure out how to smooth it or download Truespace and try that. Thanks for the help!
Re: How to make object smooth? [message #50853 is a reply to message #50746 ] Thu, 05 July 2012 13:14 UTC Go to previous messageGo to next message
avatar Pico  is currently offline Pico
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This is what I have been trying to achieve. Stonysmith ran my file through Truespace - subdivision tool and smoothed it out. Thanks for the help.

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Re: How to make object smooth? [message #50859 is a reply to message #50853 ] Thu, 05 July 2012 15:52 UTC Go to previous messageGo to next message
avatar Fredd  is currently offline Fredd
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Be careful whenever you use subdivision modelling(Catmull-Clark) this process will effect the entire model, unless the faces you do not want to deform edges are selected, and the crease is weighted to the maximum.(Well for Blender at least.) This process is better than adding edge loops to lessen the effect.
For a fairly current list of the modelling programs that have the subdivision modelling capability, check out Catmull-Clarks wiki entry


Have any questions regarding Blender, and need fast answers, you are always welcome at the IRC Server Freenode, channel #blender. As a bonus, several there have experience in modelling for 3D prints.

Keith
Re: How to make object smooth? [message #50861 is a reply to message #50746 ] Thu, 05 July 2012 17:05 UTC Go to previous messageGo to next message
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I have noticed that and am adding edge loops to strengthen them. I figured there must be an easier way of doing this but I've been working on this for 2 1/2 weeks and reallyreallyreally want to finish and get this ordered.
Re: How to make object smooth? [message #50973 is a reply to message #50746 ] Sat, 07 July 2012 15:26 UTC Go to previous messageGo to next message
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What;s the best way to sharpen the window edges? I've tried increasing the weight of them, doesn't seem to work. Tried Blender but couldn't figure that out. Also tried chamfering, that makes them less rounded. How do I make them shape and hardened when meshsmoothed? Thanks.
Re: How to make object smooth? [message #50975 is a reply to message #50973 ] Sat, 07 July 2012 17:04 UTC Go to previous messageGo to next message
avatar stonysmith  is currently offline stonysmith
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What did you do to make the original cutouts? I very often get my overall mesh shape smoothed out before I cut out any windows, etc. That way my surfaces can be smooth, but the edges of the windows are nice and crisp. If you can repeat the cutouts on the smoothed model, you should be able to get the effect you're after.


Patience, Persistance, Politeness - the 3Ps will help us get us to Perfect Printed Products
Re: How to make object smooth? [message #50985 is a reply to message #50746 ] Sat, 07 July 2012 23:11 UTC Go to previous message
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Hadn't ever thought of that. Cre8 Peter suggested using Boolean operation, which I don't know anything about. I'll look at both tomorrow. Thanks for the suggestion.

 
   
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