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icon8.gif  Pinçallona in bad quality [message #44720] Thu, 01 March 2012 17:02 UTC Go to next message
avatar amsole  is currently offline amsole
Messages: 3
Registered: October 2011
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I'm very dissapointed about the quality of my last order I recieved. It seems they've changed the orientation from vertical to horizontal loosing all the detail requiered by the model.
In the photo you can see the layers in the white one and some bad holes. The red one is done vertically and it appears perfect to my eyes. But all the white ones in my order are just like this one and it is really ugly. I have spend 100€ and 50€ are going directly to the trash can.
index.php?t=getfile&id=14997&private=0
Sad

Re: Pinçallona in bad quality [message #44728 is a reply to message #44720 ] Thu, 01 March 2012 19:06 UTC Go to previous messageGo to next message
avatar Youknowwho4eva  is currently offline Youknowwho4eva
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Hmm, yea I wouldn't be pleased with the sealed holes either. Email service@shapeways.com with your order number, pictures, and a description of what's wrong, and they'll take care of you.


The Mad Moder
michael@shapeways.com
Re: Pinçallona in bad quality [message #44736 is a reply to message #44728 ] Thu, 01 March 2012 20:21 UTC Go to previous messageGo to next message
avatar stonysmith  is currently offline stonysmith
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Part of that looks like just a bit of powder trapped in the hole, and that it should blow out with a bit of air pressure.

As to some of the holes there, please double check the design rules

Scroll all the way to the bottom of that page. They show you there what happens to various size holes versus the wall thickness.

[Updated on: Thu, 01 March 2012 20:22 UTC]


Patience, Persistance, Politeness - the 3Ps will help us get us to Perfect Printed Products
Re: Pinçallona in bad quality [message #44737 is a reply to message #44736 ] Thu, 01 March 2012 20:44 UTC Go to previous messageGo to next message
avatar Bunrattypark  is currently offline Bunrattypark
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This is another example of why there simply MUST be an option to specify orientation. For an extra nominal charge, it would guarantee quality of items within the parameters of the author's own design.

I too have an issue where at least half of all models I or my customers order, are of terrible quality and finish, down simply to wrong orientation.

I wonder why Shapeways cannot take this seriously, despite repeated requests and complaints? It costs far too much for 3D printing to have a lottery for finished quality.
Re: Pinçallona in bad quality [message #44739 is a reply to message #44720 ] Thu, 01 March 2012 20:52 UTC Go to previous messageGo to next message
avatar Youknowwho4eva  is currently offline Youknowwho4eva
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If you haven't already, vote here for it.


The Mad Moder
michael@shapeways.com
Re: Pinçallona in bad quality [message #44743 is a reply to message #44739 ] Thu, 01 March 2012 21:53 UTC Go to previous messageGo to next message
avatar underitall  is currently offline underitall
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Registered: August 2010
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Hello all.
I've not had a problem myself with printing orientation, mainly because my models are tiny anyway, so expect some sort of printing lines to appear-But, just an idea, I have too much time on my hands!

Based on the Maximum size Model you can print in WSF being 66 x 55 x 35cm and presuming the 35cm is the height on the Z Axis, if you are not too worried about the cost and just want a way in guaranteeing print orientation, could you not add a little part free of the Model like in my example below?

http://img811.imageshack.us/img811/3743/verticalprint.jpg

The Purple part being your model and the white part being the part free of the actual Model.
The added extra is to make that Axis of the Model longer than that of the Z Axis, thus preventing the operator rotating it, so long as you make the added extra with your Model longer than 35cm.

The added extra part in this example is about 11.05cm3, the actual Model about 99.45.
Obviously the size of your added extra may vary, that one is 5x5mm square and about 18cm long.
It makes sense to me anyway, but it may be hard to understand.

Something worth thinking about IMO if I needed to guarantee print orientation, and I hope it helps some people,
Tom.
Re: Pinçallona in bad quality [message #44744 is a reply to message #44737 ] Thu, 01 March 2012 22:01 UTC Go to previous messageGo to next message
avatar BillBedford  is currently offline BillBedford
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Registered: November 2008
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Bunrattypark wrote on Thu, 01 March 2012 20:44

This is another example of why there simply MUST be an option to specify orientation.


How would anyone know which was the best orientation without a lot of trial and error? The guys running the machines will have a lot more experience of what works or doesn't than anyone who never sees a machine in action.

[Updated on: Thu, 01 March 2012 22:09 UTC]


Bill Bedford
Re: Pinçallona in bad quality [message #44745 is a reply to message #44744 ] Thu, 01 March 2012 22:10 UTC Go to previous messageGo to next message
avatar underitall  is currently offline underitall
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My understanding is that the operators fit in the Models into the Print run as efficiently as possible, not necessarily on which way will Print best in terms of quality.
Tom.
Re: Pinçallona in bad quality [message #44746 is a reply to message #44745 ] Thu, 01 March 2012 22:25 UTC Go to previous messageGo to next message
avatar BillBedford  is currently offline BillBedford
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Maybe so, but how likely is it that an operator will orient a piece in such a way that they know it is likely to be rejected? Give them credit for some professionalism.


Bill Bedford
Re: Pinçallona in bad quality [message #44747 is a reply to message #44746 ] Thu, 01 March 2012 22:50 UTC Go to previous messageGo to next message
avatar amsole  is currently offline amsole
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I worked as a product designer and prefessionalism is to demand all the specs requiered to make sure that no work will be useless or a waste. I expected some comunication asking for changes before making any on my model, even a simple axis change, or any other issues on the model. It seems they only care to produce as much they can and to charge as many orders every day to the max.
Also a client will buy this model for 9€, and some good expectations with this price will come. I'm not sure if I want my name on that bad pieces, and to earn money with that (myself).
I will be more comfortable following an extensive form and regulations to upload a model and being sure the quality will be right. Bureaucracy is not bad if it is well designed.
Also I did some trial before putting my model to producton and public to buy on my shop. So it is a lose of money and time from my part also, but it is not a problem if it is not for nothing, like it seems. In the industry an operator don't have credit for making decisions, because of issues like this tread started.

[Updated on: Thu, 01 March 2012 22:59 UTC]

Re: Pinçallona in bad quality [message #44748 is a reply to message #44720 ] Thu, 01 March 2012 23:16 UTC Go to previous messageGo to next message
avatar aeron203  is currently offline aeron203
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Registered: July 2008
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The builds are not packed by hand, though they might do a few for customer service reasons. The builds contain hundreds of parts, and doing it manually is very labor intensive and hard to visualize. Shapeways has a custom setup, but the packing algorthms I'm most familiar with (Magics and Zprint) use the method that Tom describes. By defaut, they begin by rotating the shortest axis to Z. That is usually both efficient and the best quality. Because orientations are inconsistent, I have to assume Shapeways algorithm is smart enough to re-orient to fill gaps, increasing efficiency. That means you can't specify an orientation without re-writing the algorithm or manually packing the build.

As tempting as it is, please don't put dangly things on the parts to force the orientation. This will make them both less efficient to print and harder to clean. If the useless part breaks off, you may not even get your model!

To get good better part consistency, design with the realities of 3D printing in mind. In this case, the production method creates layering artifacts, and fine crevices may contain loose powder. Other services are available that will do it manually for about double the price if you really need it.


Aaron - 40westdesigns.com/blog
Re: Pinçallona in bad quality [message #44750 is a reply to message #44748 ] Thu, 01 March 2012 23:46 UTC Go to previous messageGo to next message
avatar amsole  is currently offline amsole
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Registered: October 2011
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It is allright, and very interesting aeron. Maybe my expectations were too high. Shapeways seems an acessible object creation space, and a great idea to me. But it appears to be a prototype manufacturer service selled as a DIY product design. I wasn't expecting a professional results, of course, but for me is shocking the lack of control and communication.
The firts pieces I purchased were allright, I had no issues, and once I made a big order half of the pieces were ugly. With no previous warnings. If they want to become a serious production tool they will have to implement a lot of thing to assure quality, or prevent hight expectations.

[Updated on: Fri, 02 March 2012 00:02 UTC]

Re: Pinçallona in bad quality [message #44833 is a reply to message #44720 ] Sat, 03 March 2012 11:45 UTC Go to previous message
avatar Bunrattypark  is currently offline Bunrattypark
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I second that.

I was producing model buses, that ranged in price from about €30 all the way up to €90, or more. The first models that arrived, were printed perfectly, exactly as I designed them. I made a small few minor adjustments, but otherwise, I was happy. As it happened, there were serious issues with painting them, but that is an entirely seperate issue, and one I am working on.

However, after the first few models, I started to receive models with unsightly print lines on the roofs, and it turned out that these were the result of a different printing orientation, something I never knew anything about until I received the bad models.

Thereafter, I had numerous complaints from customers who received models with these unsightly deformities. Why, they asked, were some okay, and others not?

If I am offering a product for sale, I need to guarantee a certain quality. I cannot simply tell my customer that, oh, my manufacturer doesn't place the same value on quality as I do, so you'll just have to take a chance, and take what you get.

I have been asked to 'vote' for specified orientation on the Shapeways voting system. When I last checked, specified print orientation had fifty votes. But what does that mean? Does that mean that Shapeways are going to allow us to specify our printing orientation? Or does it mean they are going to continue to ignore us?

Specified print orientation means the difference between my customers purchasing quality 3D printed models, exactly as I designed them, or purchasing rubbish. At €30 to €90 a go, it costs too much for it to be a lottery.

Will someone from Shapeways please 'communicate' with us, and tell us if they plan to address this issue this year, or should I close up shop and go elsewhere? My customers are demanding to know what's happening. I need a definitive answer.

 
   
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