Home » Community » General Discussion » Rejections for previously printed models
Search Search  
Show: Today's Messages    Show Polls    Message Navigator
Rejections for previously printed models [message #39582] Wed, 30 November 2011 14:36 UTC Go to next message
avatar lensman  is currently offline lensman
Messages: 1526
Registered: December 2009
Go to my shop
Senior Member
Frustrated!!!!!

I've just had two rejections on models that I've had successfully printed before. And these were orders from customers, not myself. I've said this before: This is one of the most frustrating things about the whole process - when successful prints become unprintable and it's a customer who finds this out before I do.

One item was a pendant that I've had made in Stainless Steel before (my mother has it!). Now I'm told that a wall is too thin for this to be printed in SILVER for ****-sake! I could understand if this were reversed, printed in silver but cannot print in s/steel, but no, it's not. S/Steel has MUCH less tolerance than Silver and yet it gets rejected.

Second item was another pendant based on Dr Who's TARDIS. Picture the "slats" between the panels on the door. These are what I'm told are too thin-walled. According to the reference image sent to me this should not be able to be printed in ANY material that Shapeways offers and YET I have received notifications for quite a few of these having been sold with NO PROBLEMS. Why now?!

index.php?t=getfile&id=12386&private=0

My sub-topic of when do Details become Walls refers to this pendant. I consider the "slats" to be DETAILS that extrude off the main body of the model. What makes them a WALL? And who decides this, because OBVIOUSLY several technicians have viewed them as I did and printed them SUCCESSFULLY. So why the rejection?

Yes, I have posed these questions to Shapeways customer service but I post these questions here for two reasons:

1) to find out if many other people have encountered this problem recently

2) to express my frustration - again - at this aspect of the operation - when a customer's order gets rejected for something that has been printed before. It personally embarasses me to have someone think that I am incompetent in my designs.

Glenn

[Updated on: Wed, 30 November 2011 14:44 UTC]


Glenn ------ My Website Third Dimension Jewellery
Re: Rejections for previously printed models [message #39583 is a reply to message #39582 ] Wed, 30 November 2011 14:46 UTC Go to previous messageGo to next message
avatar Youknowwho4eva  is currently offline Youknowwho4eva
Messages: 5315
Registered: September 2008
Go to my shop
Senior Member
I work here
Glenn, I understand your frustration. Take a breath for me. I went to add it to the new feedback system (to be released soon) and I'll tell you it was already there and already pretty high priority. As long as it's top, it'll be addressed first, so hopefully soon there will be a "printed" flag for items that were already printed to not be checked again.


Your friendly neighborhood Moderman
michael@shapeways.com
Re: Rejections for previously printed models [message #39584 is a reply to message #39583 ] Wed, 30 November 2011 14:48 UTC Go to previous messageGo to next message
avatar lensman  is currently offline lensman
Messages: 1526
Registered: December 2009
Go to my shop
Senior Member
Here is the first pendant sucessfully printed in S/Steel that cannot be printed in Silver. You see the little "indentation" on the top curve? That is where I'm told there is a "thin wall"

At this rate we won't be able to get anything printed anymore, unless maybe it's a plain old cube.

Glenn

index.php?t=getfile&id=12387&private=0

[Updated on: Wed, 30 November 2011 14:51 UTC]


Glenn ------ My Website Third Dimension Jewellery
Re: Rejections for previously printed models [message #39586 is a reply to message #39583 ] Wed, 30 November 2011 15:07 UTC Go to previous messageGo to next message
avatar lensman  is currently offline lensman
Messages: 1526
Registered: December 2009
Go to my shop
Senior Member
Youknowwho4eva wrote on Wed, 30 November 2011 14:46

Glenn, I understand your frustration. Take a breath for me. I went to add it to the new feedback system (to be released soon) and I'll tell you it was already there and already pretty high priority. As long as it's top, it'll be addressed first, so hopefully soon there will be a "printed" flag for items that were already printed to not be checked again.


Breathing in........... Breathing out.........

1,2,3,4,5,6,7,8,9,10.....

Okay, here we go.....

Am I to read from that then, when a technician goes to print something he//she would look to see if it had been printed before, in what material, and then would NOT check the model again as to its printability? That would help, yes.

In the meantime I've lost orders, one or two customers (not for the first time, either) and Shapeways has also likely lost customers and got some bad rep.

I really do hope this situation is changed soon because I'd be willing to bet it's high on most designers list of top ten Shapeways peeves.

Glenn




Glenn ------ My Website Third Dimension Jewellery
Re: Rejections for previously printed models [message #39588 is a reply to message #39582 ] Wed, 30 November 2011 15:24 UTC Go to previous messageGo to next message
avatar Youknowwho4eva  is currently offline Youknowwho4eva
Messages: 5315
Registered: September 2008
Go to my shop
Senior Member
I work here
I don't know how it will be handled, but as long as it's high priority it will be addressed. For the time I'd contact support about your issues to see if there is a better answer to why it can't be printed. Maybe it's a casting issue with silver? Only support can help you with those questions.


Your friendly neighborhood Moderman
michael@shapeways.com
Re: Rejections for previously printed models [message #39591 is a reply to message #39588 ] Wed, 30 November 2011 16:13 UTC Go to previous messageGo to next message
avatar DarioScapittaDesign  is currently offline DarioScapittaDesign
Messages: 199
Registered: September 2011
Go to my shop
Senior Member
Hi guys,

I had the same problem since the last week, also with an object that I've uploade before and was perfectly printed.

I reordered it and... same problem!

Today I' started to breath and counting until 100 and more...

I'm every day in contact with the customer service and probably Christel is hating me Razz but she is very patience and helpfull. The devolopment department is working on this issue.

I hope everything will be better and everything fixed.

Ciaooo
Dario


Dario Scapitta Design
www.darioscapittadesign.com
Re: Rejections for previously printed models [message #39595 is a reply to message #39582 ] Wed, 30 November 2011 16:56 UTC Go to previous messageGo to next message
avatar lensman  is currently offline lensman
Messages: 1526
Registered: December 2009
Go to my shop
Senior Member
Yes, their plans for future checking of "thin walls" should hopefully help with the problem.

Glenn


Glenn ------ My Website Third Dimension Jewellery
Re: Rejections for previously printed models [message #39774 is a reply to message #39595 ] Sat, 03 December 2011 02:08 UTC Go to previous messageGo to next message
avatar CGD  is currently offline CGD
Messages: 218
Registered: April 2009
Go to my shop
Senior Member
lensman wrote on Wed, 30 November 2011 16:56

Yes, their plans for future checking of "thin walls" should hopefully help with the problem.

Glenn



This is what one of the CS told me:

Quote:

Also, please be-aware that in the first quarter of 2012 our Thin wall check will go live, this check will determine if a model is printable in which material when you upload it.
This means that if the model has parts below the 0.7mm, our thin wall check will reject the model already for WSF, and will make it unavailable.


1. Once automatic, no exceptions. So any previous models that have printed successfully millions of times will have the offended material taken off.

2. Whether they will automatically tell you where the area the thin wall problem occurs, may be, or may not.

Imagine uploading a new model and get rejected because of thin wall. Where does it happen? I once have a model rejected because of a joint between two track links falls below the minimum requirement after they are unified, and you need to magnify the model 500% in order to spot it. That means if you do not have the capability of making your model into a single shell, you will never be able to spot or fix the problem.

[Updated on: Sat, 03 December 2011 02:26 UTC]

Re: Rejections for previously printed models [message #39775 is a reply to message #39582 ] Sat, 03 December 2011 02:45 UTC Go to previous messageGo to next message
avatar lensman  is currently offline lensman
Messages: 1526
Registered: December 2009
Go to my shop
Senior Member
Yes, that could present a problem. I could see a lot of requests to Service to explain why they get models rejected. As you can see from my pendant this generated a thin wall error but it actually prints okay.

Glenn


Glenn ------ My Website Third Dimension Jewellery
Re: Rejections for previously printed models [message #39819 is a reply to message #39775 ] Sun, 04 December 2011 23:52 UTC Go to previous messageGo to next message
avatar ana  is currently offline ana
Messages: 765
Registered: October 2008
Go to my shop
Senior Member
I work here
Hey Glenn, I'm sorry to hear it, that's really frustrating.

When it comes to automatic checks, we've already been thinking about these questions a bit.

My understanding is that the software checks will actually tell you where the issue is, which should solve more problems than it causes. We've also had some internal discussion about how to handle designs which have been printable for a long time, but are considered unprintable by the software. We've talked about either providing a grace period for you to change you designs, or in some unique cases, maybe creating permanent exceptions.

We definitely understand how much this could shake things up for certain shopowners, and hopefully it helps to know that we're thinking about it pre-emptively.

What has CS said so far about your case?


Community Manager | Shapeways

Re: Rejections for previously printed models [message #39821 is a reply to message #39819 ] Mon, 05 December 2011 02:07 UTC Go to previous messageGo to next message
avatar CGD  is currently offline CGD
Messages: 218
Registered: April 2009
Go to my shop
Senior Member
ana wrote on Sun, 04 December 2011 23:52

Hey Glenn, I'm sorry to hear it, that's really frustrating.

When it comes to automatic checks, we've already been thinking about these questions a bit.

My understanding is that the software checks will actually tell you where the issue is, which should solve more problems than it causes. We've also had some internal discussion about how to handle designs which have been printable for a long time, but are considered unprintable by the software. We've talked about either providing a grace period for you to change you designs, or in some unique cases, maybe creating permanent exceptions.

We definitely understand how much this could shake things up for certain shopowners, and hopefully it helps to know that we're thinking about it pre-emptively.

What has CS said so far about your case?


Hi Ana,

I just have one of my model rejected, which has been printed many times successfully before. While you are talking internally about grace period or exceptions, my model has already been made immediately unprintable unless I fixed the problem and reorder again.

CGD

[Updated on: Mon, 05 December 2011 02:11 UTC]

Re: Rejections for previously printed models [message #39822 is a reply to message #39819 ] Mon, 05 December 2011 02:23 UTC Go to previous messageGo to next message
avatar lensman  is currently offline lensman
Messages: 1526
Registered: December 2009
Go to my shop
Senior Member
ana wrote on Sun, 04 December 2011 23:52

Hey Glenn, I'm sorry to hear it, that's really frustrating.
....
What has CS said so far about your case?


Essentially I was told that the process for stainless steel and silver are both different and that printing in s/steel doesn't mean it will print in silver.

I didn't press the issue and have taken it off sale. What I wanted to say was that from everything I've read about others orders I'd have thought that if it had printed in silver but could not be printed in s/steel I would have accepted that; the requirements for s/steel are much more rigid than with silver. I've seen some delicate objects printed in silver and that little "kink" on the edge shouldn't have affected it.

But, I'm moving on and trying to learn from it.

Glenn


Glenn ------ My Website Third Dimension Jewellery
Re: Rejections for previously printed models [message #39823 is a reply to message #39582 ] Mon, 05 December 2011 02:27 UTC Go to previous messageGo to next message
avatar lensman  is currently offline lensman
Messages: 1526
Registered: December 2009
Go to my shop
Senior Member
And of course, now when I check my email I get this request from a customer on my Blog that I am now going to have to turn away -
Mad


"i really like this piece , it's exactly what I am looking for. what is the actual size ? available in gold ? have it by christmas ? price ?"

Glenn


Glenn ------ My Website Third Dimension Jewellery
Re: Rejections for previously printed models [message #39833 is a reply to message #39582 ] Mon, 05 December 2011 10:37 UTC Go to previous messageGo to next message
avatar pfeiffer stylez  is currently offline pfeiffer stylez
Messages: 296
Registered: August 2011
Go to my shop
Senior Member
lensman wrote on Wed, 30 November 2011 14:36

(...)
Second item was another pendant based on Dr Who's TARDIS. Picture the "slats" between the panels on the door. These are what I'm told are too thin-walled.
(...)


lensman wrote on Wed, 30 November 2011 14:48

Here is the first pendant sucessfully printed in S/Steel that cannot be printed in Silver. You see the little "indentation" on the top curve? That is where I'm told there is a "thin wall"


I don't get it. Neutral
Why are these classified as "walls", and not as "details" ?
Re: Rejections for previously printed models [message #39847 is a reply to message #39582 ] Mon, 05 December 2011 17:38 UTC Go to previous messageGo to next message
avatar lensman  is currently offline lensman
Messages: 1526
Registered: December 2009
Go to my shop
Senior Member
That was exactly my question...

I should also add that at the end of the "thin wall" error for the pendant there was also "Bad STL", but again that makes no sense since I have already had it printed in s/steel... However, I do understand that as SW makes changes to their design standards they have to set the quality level somewhere.

Glenn


Glenn ------ My Website Third Dimension Jewellery
Re: Rejections for previously printed models [message #39852 is a reply to message #39847 ] Mon, 05 December 2011 21:15 UTC Go to previous messageGo to next message
avatar pfeiffer stylez  is currently offline pfeiffer stylez
Messages: 296
Registered: August 2011
Go to my shop
Senior Member
Yeah, but I still don't get it. Confused

"Also, please be-aware that in the first quarter of 2012 our Thin wall check will go live, this check will determine if a model is printable in which material when you upload it.
This means that if the model has parts below the 0.7mm, our thin wall check will reject the model already for WSF, and will make it unavailable."


Simple example:

http://s1.directupload.net/images/user/111205/temp/8vaydwsw.jpg
(clickable thumbnail)

This will get rejected (for WSF), because one "part" is below 0,7mm ?!

Where is the border between "wall" and "detail" ?

Or is the min. detail level just for "DownSkin", and everything "UpSkin" has to be conform to the min. wall rules ?
Re: Rejections for previously printed models [message #39855 is a reply to message #39852 ] Mon, 05 December 2011 22:49 UTC Go to previous messageGo to next message
avatar GWMT  is currently offline GWMT
Messages: 196
Registered: February 2011
Go to my shop
Senior Member
The minimum wall thickness value for the material determines the distance at which an extrusion from a surface becomes a 'wall' rather than a 'detail'.

For stainless steel the minimum wall thickness is 3mm so anything that extends farther than 3mm from the surface is considered a wall and it must be no thinner than 3mm across. If the extrusion is less than 3mm tall it's considered a detail and can be thinner than 3mm. The minimum detail level for stainless is 1mm so to guarantee no printing problems the detail shouldn't be any thinner than that (at least for extrusions taller than 1mm).

For example an extrusion from the surface 1mm wide and 2.9mm tall would be considered a detail and be accepted for printing but an extrusion 1mm wide and 3mm tall would be considered a wall and be rejected - you'd need to widen a 3mm tall extrusion to 3mm in order for it to be accepted for printing.

For silver the minimum wall thickness is 0.6mm and minimum detail level 0.3mm; any extrusions from the surface taller than 0.6mm must be at least 0.6mm thick. A 0.5mm tall extrusion 0.3mm thick would be accepted but a 0.6mm tall extrusion 0.3mm thick would be rejected.

pfeiffer stylez's example of a 0.3mm tall extrusion 0.5mm wide would be accepted in silver; if it was 0.6mm tall instead of 0.3mm it would be rejected by the software unless the width was increased from 0.5mm to 0.6mm.

Re: Rejections for previously printed models [message #39884 is a reply to message #39582 ] Tue, 06 December 2011 19:36 UTC Go to previous messageGo to next message
avatar JACANT  is currently offline JACANT
Messages: 575
Registered: July 2011
Go to my shop
Senior Member
I have two items in my shop that are not available in WSF, but are available in WSFP, BSF, ISF and DGSF. the answer it seems is that each axis has to be at least 2.5mm, new design rules.

I asked surely you print in WSF before you can colour or polish the item. to get WSFP, BSF etc. Yet the item is available in these colours and polished.
This is the answer, quote,
"You see, we have different printer setting per material.
Please make sure that each axis (y,x,z,) needs to be at least. This is the rules we have for the WSF material. I can see that the flower pendant in order: xxxxxxx has smaller axis. But since we had a lot of print issues in the past we changed these printer settings, so that each axis needs to be at least :2.5mm"


jacantdesign@gmail.com
Re: Rejections for previously printed models [message #39957 is a reply to message #39582 ] Thu, 08 December 2011 08:55 UTC Go to previous messageGo to next message
avatar stop4stuff  is currently offline stop4stuff
Messages: 3109
Registered: June 2010
Go to my shop
Senior Member
Sorry for jumping in late on this.

I too have had models rejected for silver, the reasons varied from multiple parts, to 'wax print too fragile', the reasons seems vauge and conflicting, but at the end of the day persistant questions as to the real reason basically got the answer to down 'handling issues'. I can't go into the nitty gritty's of the design as it was for a customer, but simply put the design was lots of small things mounted on a larger thing. This answer was finally conveyed to me after nearly four months and many redesigns.

Clear and consise communcation from Shapeways Customer Services AND Shapeways production partners to designers is a must to save everyone involved frustration, time and money.

Re: Rejections for previously printed models [message #39969 is a reply to message #39582 ] Thu, 08 December 2011 14:32 UTC Go to previous messageGo to next message
avatar lensman  is currently offline lensman
Messages: 1526
Registered: December 2009
Go to my shop
Senior Member
Absolutely agree with that. Rejections are, for me, the most frustrating part of the whole process. I wouldn't mind so much if they were my orders but when they come from customers it affects me more.

Glenn


Glenn ------ My Website Third Dimension Jewellery
Re: Rejections for previously printed models [message #39973 is a reply to message #39969 ] Thu, 08 December 2011 17:21 UTC Go to previous messageGo to next message
avatar ana  is currently offline ana
Messages: 765
Registered: October 2008
Go to my shop
Senior Member
I work here
Hey guys, we got it.

I realize this problem has reared its head many times over the course of Shapeways lifespan. I'll be speaking with CS and with our Supply Chain team to ask them to review and update our practices around rejections.

It would be a huge help for me if you could create an item for this in Uservoice, clearly articulating what you'd like to see done differently, and encourage others to upvote it. It'll give me a tangible way to show my team what a high priority it is within the community.

Thanks,
Ana


Community Manager | Shapeways

Re: Rejections for previously printed models [message #40034 is a reply to message #39884 ] Fri, 09 December 2011 22:34 UTC Go to previous messageGo to next message
avatar JACANT  is currently offline JACANT
Messages: 575
Registered: July 2011
Go to my shop
Senior Member
Update.
I redesigned one of my models that had been rejected. Making the wall thickness 1mm and the overall axis 2.5mm. It was rejected, the answer is that my model did not reach the minimum requirements. It turns out one of my axis was only 2.496mm !!!!!
Is someone taking the proverbial or what?


jacantdesign@gmail.com
Re: Rejections for previously printed models [message #40038 is a reply to message #39582 ] Fri, 09 December 2011 23:17 UTC Go to previous messageGo to next message
avatar Youknowwho4eva  is currently offline Youknowwho4eva
Messages: 5315
Registered: September 2008
Go to my shop
Senior Member
I work here
Jacant, no offense, but there has to be a line, I used to deliver pizza's and there was always "well you deliver to my neighbor". So if we started to deliver to them, the next neighbor would be calling. And eventually we'd be delivering to China (exaggeration of course but hopefully you understand). I, myself, always aim big. The minimum is 1 mm so I use .04 inches which is 1.016 mm. That way I don't have to worry about a .998 coming up.


Your friendly neighborhood Moderman
michael@shapeways.com
Re: Rejections for previously printed models [message #40045 is a reply to message #40038 ] Sat, 10 December 2011 00:07 UTC Go to previous messageGo to next message
avatar JACANT  is currently offline JACANT
Messages: 575
Registered: July 2011
Go to my shop
Senior Member
Everything is OK now, I have resized the model and it has been accepted.
The point I was trying to make was, I designed this with a 2.5mm axis. I opened it in Netfabb to check it. The size in Netfabb agreed that it was 2.5mm. Yet with Shapeways 'tools' it came out as slightly less and was rejected.
I think the moral of this tale is to design your models slightly above the recommended sizes and everything should be OK.

[Updated on: Sat, 10 December 2011 00:12 UTC]


jacantdesign@gmail.com
Re: Rejections for previously printed models [message #40087 is a reply to message #39973 ] Sun, 11 December 2011 00:23 UTC Go to previous message
avatar JACANT  is currently offline JACANT
Messages: 575
Registered: July 2011
Go to my shop
Senior Member
As requested by Ana. I have created an item for this in Uservoice

http://feedback.shapeways.com/forums/111989-shapeways-feedba ck/suggestions/2446177-tolerance-variable-to-sizes


jacantdesign@gmail.com

 
   
Previous Topic:Sketchup Settings
Next Topic:Finally Got My Design Input to Google Sketchup

Logo

Hello.

We're sorry to inform you that we no longer support this browser and can't confirm that everything will work as expected. For the best Shapeways experience, please use one of the following browsers:

Click anywhere outside this window to continue.