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Re: New price structure [message #35615 is a reply to message #35611 ] Sat, 01 October 2011 17:04 UTC Go to previous messageGo to next message
avatar B1lancer  is currently offline B1lancer
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Will peoples' attempts to create cheaper models in fact cause handling to be more difficult?

For example:

"Person A" may have 3 models, they are solid structures, a cube for example, they are seperate and thus print fine. In the old system provided the models were uploaded as one file there would be only one $5 handling fee. But with the new handling fee it will be $5 per item?

"Person B" may have the same 3 models, only to obtain a single $5 handling fee he'll join the cubes with small sprues, they are within the guidelines but will break easily due to the large models being linked by a small sprue. He could then request that if a sprue is broken that the models be reprinted.

So surely the costs of handling 3 seperate items is much cheaper than 3 items joined (making them one item) with delicate sprues? Yet the easier handling seperate items will cost $15, and the same models joined with a delicate sprue will only cost $5 in handling.

Am I understanding the new system correctly?

Kindest Regards,

Jack

[Updated on: Sat, 01 October 2011 17:06 UTC]

Re: New price structure [message #35619 is a reply to message #34810 ] Sat, 01 October 2011 20:08 UTC Go to previous messageGo to next message
avatar tebee  is currently offline tebee
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Shapeways seem to have a good idea about what is a sprue and the fact that it does not matter if it gets broken. I've had several items I've submitted with sprues come back without the sprues .

I now don't bother with the sprues other than the case of very small items which would be a problem to handle individuality and are likely to get lost.

It would be nice to get a definitive answer from Shapeways as whether sprues were necessary or a pain - and in what circumstances ( to sprue or not to sprure, that is the question?) but having asked several times and not got a reply I'm giving it my best guess.

I'm guessing that most of what the start-up charge covers is a per order figure and as long as the items are a reasonable size it doesn't take that much longer to get multiple ones out of the machine and into the bag - it's keeping track of the bag after that is the expensive part, so multiple items per STL are not that much of an issue - yet !

[Updated on: Sat, 01 October 2011 20:09 UTC]

Re: New price structure [message #35621 is a reply to message #35603 ] Sat, 01 October 2011 21:16 UTC Go to previous messageGo to next message
avatar designerica  is currently offline designerica
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well, i've never built sprues into a design, but as i understood it the bronze infusion process necessitates the creation of a sprew which shapeways then removes-- hence a polished spot on the surface of each piece.

what i'm trying to understand is how this applies to a small item vs. a large item specifically in steel. as i said before, i've had jewelry cast in silver and brass and a larger item always requires more sprues (my honeycomb cuff had 3), which means it takes me much longer to clean up than does a small item with one sprue.

hence, i'm still not clear on the handling cost for steel. i understand that sorting and packaging will take longer if the file includes 50 different parts that need to be cleaned, sorted, and packed. so the handling fee is comprised of:

1. sorting and packing- this process is the same for metal and plastic, right? so sorting and packing must account for the first 1.75 of the "handling" fee. the other 4.75 must be for the cleaning. correct me if i'm reasoning from bad premises.

2. cleaning- i have trouble understanding how cleaning a large complex model is as easy as cleaning a small one, or even two small ones. i've seen the videos. there isn't as much surface area on a small item, so it seems to me that it must be easier to clean. is that wrong?

does cleaning include sprue removal after bronze infusion? if so, does a small model have the same number of sprues as a large model? if i put two very similar (or identical) small models into one file, is it twice as much work as if i had one model that was twice the volume with the same surface area? obviously if i put 25 models into a file (which i've done, primarily to make my own life easier), there is a lot more work to finish it, and i don't want to be essentially stealing from you by doing that, which i prefer not to do and i wonder why i wasn't stopped before.

i really don't mean to be obnoxious about this- i just want to understand.
Re: New price structure [message #35623 is a reply to message #35621 ] Sat, 01 October 2011 22:16 UTC Go to previous messageGo to next message
avatar pete  is currently offline pete
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Erica,

first of: there is a difference between casting and infusion. The metal parts are infused, silver is casted. Also infusion probably uses less spruces than casting, but I am not a specialist.

To answer 1) Metal is more in handling because of the 2 step process. First the models are printed, then cured, than removed from powder and infused in oven. Also each part needs spruces and the removal of them later. To do all of this takes quite some manual labor

To answer 2) The removal of the spruces is the only extra handling, cleaning is mostly done using a tumbler -> no manual work or difference between large and small.

To answer the question about multiple models / file -> yes this costs us 2x as much work. We are not enforcing this yet as not many people abuse it, but if abuse increases unfortunately we will have to.

Pete
Re: New price structure [message #35624 is a reply to message #34810 ] Sat, 01 October 2011 22:42 UTC Go to previous messageGo to next message
avatar aeron203  is currently offline aeron203
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Erica, I think I can help clarify some of your questions. I have a lot of experience operating both powder and deposition printers. While I haven't used a ProMetal setup, I can take an educated guess that maybe could be further 'tempered' by Glenn if he stops in.

I would say, do not sprue metal parts. You are just going to have to accept that very small metal items will raise their price somewhat. I have items that were only a few cm3 before and they did not change much at all. I still think it is a great deal when we are talking about custom, short run production. Sprued metal parts are very likely to break because of the rapid change in thickness. That part will cool first, and the difference in expansion between other parts will cause it to crack. The labor to distinguish, then grind and polish those sprues cannot be given for free. The stem has outlived its use by this stage and might break, but it doesn't matter. When you take into account your labor of removing your sprues and the fact that you won't be able to offer other finishes, it pretty much rules that out for Stainless Steel. Because of the extreme likelihood of failure, I would reject all sprued metal parts if I were reviewing models for Shapeways, except in very specific cases, and they would need a very experienced person to recognize those cases. The best economical action is to order many at once, which you already do.

From a depowdering perspective I can say that removing a part with exposed fine details from a powder bed can easily take ten times more labor. I would also reject parts like that, regardless of the fact that they barely hit the minimum wall thickness, otherwise the cost for all parts would have to rise. I always think about these issues when coming up with the design. My Time Keeper model has 1.8mm elements, but it also has a thick ring around the outside that makes it easy to pick up between the thumb and forefinger and brush it off without breaking it. Also, all of these thin elements are supported after distances of no more than about 1.5cm, and are always supported on both ends, making them far less likely to break, and they are thicker in the direction parallel to how impacting forces are most likely to be applied. In retrospect I regret not explaining all these things to people because some very unlikely designs were created that simply focused on the numbers in the design rules, when the reality is obviously much more complicated.

All in all, it is the attempts to stretch the design rules and get around pricing structures that led to the dramatic price rise for tiny items. This became pretty obvious several months ago after the FUD tests. I know people were not trying to abuse the system, it's just that our attempts to make ultra-economical models broke the Shapeways pricing system. I have to take partial responsibility for doing things that raised peoples expectations without explaining exactly how and why a particular design works. I'm doing my best to rectify that but there is nothing I can do to hide the fact that the reality is indeed complicated and takes some thinking and work if you are going to squeeze out every penny. Please don't describe it as Shapeways "Forcing" you to cheat the system, because as we have seen, that will simply break the pricing model and force the prices even higher, when what we should be doing is recognizing which behaviors are causing the problems and keep it in mind when we create designs moving forward.

3D printing does allow us to do amazing things and the price is far better than any other alternative, but we are going to have to move just little farther from the limits if this is going to work.


Aaron - 40westdesigns.com/blog
Re: New price structure [message #35625 is a reply to message #35624 ] Sat, 01 October 2011 22:56 UTC Go to previous messageGo to next message
avatar pete  is currently offline pete
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Hey Aaron,

really appreciate your feedback.

You summarize exactly what the situation is: we are trying to be as economically as possible. If we all help in the right direction we can get the service more and more efficient and thus lower prices, which is what everybody wants.

Pete
Re: New price structure [message #35628 is a reply to message #35623 ] Sun, 02 October 2011 00:54 UTC Go to previous messageGo to next message
avatar B1lancer  is currently offline B1lancer
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pete wrote on Sat, 01 October 2011 22:16


To answer the question about multiple models / file -> yes this costs us 2x as much work. We are not enforcing this yet as not many people abuse it, but if abuse increases unfortunately we will have to.



But of course people will "abuse" it because it makes the models cheaper, and now with the additional postage costs even more people will try to offset the costs of the postage by creating a single model file with multiple models in.

What I don't understand is, previously the cost of the model (Start Up Fee + cm3 of material) was the whole price, so a % of the Start Up Fee + cm3 price must have been used to pay for the postage. Yes?

So now we pay for the postage why hasn't the price of postage been deducted from the Start Up Free and cm3 price?

So now we effectively pay postage twice?
Re: New price structure [message #35632 is a reply to message #34810 ] Sun, 02 October 2011 01:34 UTC Go to previous messageGo to next message
avatar SIXTHSCALE  is currently offline SIXTHSCALE
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All of these price increases should have been done by simply increasing the cost per cubic centimeter of each material...

this insane micromanaging of pricing with all of the individual materials having different startup fees makes your site completely incomprehensible to the average customer who doesn't have the time to spend countless hours here on the forums or in the materials pages... keep it simple.

so what if larger items were subsidizing the handling of the smaller ones... the smaller items and orders were subsidizing the shipping costs of the larger heavier orders... so it should have evened out well enough for any problems to be solved by a simple increase in materials pricing per cubic centimeter.

a huge portion of your handling problems and costs come from the ludicrous overpackaging of each order... the individually bagged and stapled header cards are completely unnecessary... especially when many of my items were wrapped in tissue paper inside those cards rendering them invisible anyway despite the pretty packaging....and having orders ship in a ton of separate boxes for the same order is just wasteful and silly.... especially internationally.

Re: New price structure [message #35640 is a reply to message #35632 ] Sun, 02 October 2011 04:43 UTC Go to previous messageGo to next message
avatar ana  is currently offline ana
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SIXTHSCALE, our handling fees are actually set based on careful calculations, which are independent of the cubic centimeter material cost. Think about it -- models need to get touched, sorted, planned in the printer tray regardless of their size. This is the labor cost, and the handling fee is set to cover that. By revealing this unique cost, we're looking to offer more transparency into the process, but I do understand why the info may seem overly complicated. We'll make a point of trying to explain that more effectively.

When it comes to overpackaging, I don't know if you saw the recent blog post or the blurb in this month's newsletter, but a much more efficient version of our packaging is being rolled out now. We're starting with 25% of all orders, and increasing it from there.




Community Manager | Shapeways

Re: New price structure [message #35643 is a reply to message #35632 ] Sun, 02 October 2011 04:55 UTC Go to previous messageGo to next message
avatar mctrivia  is currently offline mctrivia
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Guys stop complaining about the startup costs. Here is reality. Every production environment works on a C*XY cost base. It costs C dollars to start and finish the process and Y dollars per unit to make them. Shapeways is just trying to calculate the actual cost of producing our printsl. Those of you that have had your models go up in price it means shapeways was lossing money on your prints. For those that it has gone down it means shapeways was making extra and this was offseting the models that were losing money. The startup costs here are pretty small. When I get custom made I pay $80+0.5*cubic inches. Custom silicon chips have a startup of $100,000. Most of the startups here are only a few bucks.

There are only 3 things that really bother me. the first is that they lie about shipping cost by using UPS. The cost to ship a package to canada is $16.50. They charge shapeways $6.50 and they charge the recipient direct $10. This is not completely shapeways fault as it is UPS policy to charge both sender and recipient for shipping but it sucks for those that do not realise that the shipping is actually much higher then it is. An option to use USPS would be a hugh improvement because at least they only charge the sebder which means shapeways will see the full cost and as a result our customers will see the true cost of shipping.

The second is that shapeways only gave us a very short notice. Most industries give 90 days notice of price change so that businesses can make ajustments accordingly. 1 to 2 weeks is not enough time.

The third is the fact the programming staff at shapeways especially the new CPO are inept and the CPO should be canned for his total disregard for update standards. The fact shapeways puts up an update once without proper testing is bad. The fact they have put them up multiple times without testing the last 2 of which were within a month would have the CPO canned in any other web company. When you put an update up that is full of bugs it effects us all. They need to be thoroughly tested and only minor bugs should ever make it through the cracks.

So in conclusion startup costs are a necessity. Fire the person responsible for making updates live without testing them first(and testing means having a proper check list of steps to go through which includes making live where the community can help check for bugs)


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Re: New price structure [message #35649 is a reply to message #35482 ] Sun, 02 October 2011 07:30 UTC Go to previous messageGo to next message
avatar stop4stuff  is currently offline stop4stuff
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Hauk2 wrote on Thu, 29 September 2011 21:24

How much will postage for Norway be with the new pricing structure? We are a European country, but Non-Eu.

I really hope we fall in the $9,50 category, $19,99 seems a bit stiff....

Regards, Hauk


Hi Hauk,

From the shopping cart, EU shipping price is applied to;
"All EU Countries, Switzerland, Norway, San Marino, Vatican, Andorra, Liechenstein"

Paul
Re: New price structure [message #35653 is a reply to message #35643 ] Sun, 02 October 2011 08:31 UTC Go to previous messageGo to next message
avatar BillBedford  is currently offline BillBedford
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mctrivia wrote on Sun, 02 October 2011 04:55

There are only 3 things that really bother me. the first is that they lie about shipping cost by using UPS. The cost to ship a package to canada is $16.50. They charge shapeways $6.50 and they charge the recipient direct $10. This is not completely shapeways fault as it is UPS policy to charge both sender and recipient for shipping but it sucks for those that do not realise that the shipping is actually much higher then it is. An option to use USPS would be a hugh improvement because at least they only charge the sebder which means shapeways will see the full cost and as a result our customers will see the true cost of shipping

UPS collect import duties for your Government and are allowed to charge a brokerage fee for this 'service'. This is standard practice through out the world. If you choose to use USPS you would still have to pay the import duty and a brokerage fee.

Those of us in the EU have the privilege of paying Dutch VAT, as part of the price Shapeways charge us, instead of our own country's import Duty.


Bill Bedford
Re: New price structure [message #35658 is a reply to message #34810 ] Sun, 02 October 2011 10:12 UTC Go to previous messageGo to next message
avatar tebee  is currently offline tebee
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There are so many variable with the cost producing and distributing our models that Shapeways can never be completely fair much as they might want to be.

At some point if you try to factor in every cost not only does the cost of calculating the cost become a significant factor but the process becomes so opaque that the buyer is confused about how the total he is being expected to pay is derived and may see it as unfair anyway.

So the best they can do is some sort of reasonable approximation that rewards people who do it in whatever way is most cost-effective for them to produce and penalizes people who do things in ways which add costs.

So they may make more profit on some peoples orders than others - well life is like that. Unless you are a government contractor working on a cost plus basis you profit margin is not going to be the same on each order.

So although, to some of you, Shapeways charges may seem a bit arbitrary I think they are on the whole OK, fair and, above all, understandable. You know what something is going to cost, it's then up to you to decide if you can make sufficient margin on that for you to make a profit.


Tom

Re: New price structure [message #35659 is a reply to message #35653 ] Sun, 02 October 2011 10:12 UTC Go to previous messageGo to next message
avatar B1lancer  is currently offline B1lancer
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My question still hasn't be answered?

Old FUD Price: $5 Startup + $3.49 per cm3, Postage taken as a % from the FUD Price.

New FUD Price: $5 Startup + $3.49 per cm3, Postage NOT deducted from this as a % but charged in addition!

Why are we not seeing the postage percentage deducted from the new prices when we are now paying for postage seperately????

[Updated on: Sun, 02 October 2011 10:13 UTC]

Re: New price structure [message #35660 is a reply to message #35659 ] Sun, 02 October 2011 10:26 UTC Go to previous messageGo to next message
avatar stop4stuff  is currently offline stop4stuff
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The old pricing structure did not have postage as a % of the model cost, the deal was $25 minimum order with shipping included. You might interpret that as a % of the model cost, but what if the model cost was only $15? With the new pricing structure the total cost is slightly less (or more, depending which part of the world the model is shupped to.)

.

[Updated on: Sun, 02 October 2011 10:27 UTC]

Re: New price structure [message #35664 is a reply to message #35653 ] Sun, 02 October 2011 11:27 UTC Go to previous messageGo to next message
avatar glehn  is currently offline glehn
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BillBedford wrote on Sun, 02 October 2011 08:31


UPS collect import duties for your Government and are allowed to charge a brokerage fee for this 'service'. This is standard practice through out the world. If you choose to use USPS you would still have to pay the import duty and a brokerage fee.



That's not completely accurate. At least here in Brazil, if the package is sent by USPS, there are only import taxes. No brokerage fees.
Besides, brazilian Customs taxes mail packages based on sampling. Courier packages, such as UPS, are always taxed.
So, usually, my orders when sent by UPS cost me 100% more in taxes and fees. If they were sent by USPS it would be only 60% and as they don't tax every single mail package, there is always a chance of not being taxed (on my other internet purchases usually I am only taxed 1/3 of my orders).

Although I understand the reasons why Shapeways would change their pricing structure, I can't help to feel frustrated with this, specially with the shipping charges to the rest of the world. USD $19.90 seems a lot to ship a small item. I really hope USPS becomes an option soon.
Re: New price structure [message #35677 is a reply to message #35653 ] Sun, 02 October 2011 13:09 UTC Go to previous messageGo to next message
avatar lensman  is currently offline lensman
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BillBedford wrote on Sun, 02 October 2011 08:31


UPS collect import duties for your Government and are allowed to charge a brokerage fee for this 'service'. This is standard practice through out the world. If you choose to use USPS you would still have to pay the import duty and a brokerage fee.



Absolutely NOT true. Over the last months I have been stung by UPS buying supplies from the US and shipped to Canada. I then made an effort to seek out companies that only shipped by USPS and I saved a TON of money. The goods themselves may have been slightly higher but I saved overall cost because I did NOT pay any courier fee, import duty or brokerage fees.

Yes, I do understand that some packages do get "caught" and taxes have to be paid but so far I have been lucky.

Glenn



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Re: New price structure [message #35678 is a reply to message #35664 ] Sun, 02 October 2011 13:10 UTC Go to previous messageGo to next message
avatar mctrivia  is currently offline mctrivia
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I have no problem paying the 5% tax UPS charges. But only UPS charges an additional $10 on every package.


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Re: New price structure [message #35681 is a reply to message #35664 ] Sun, 02 October 2011 13:14 UTC Go to previous messageGo to next message
avatar lensman  is currently offline lensman
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glehn wrote on Sun, 02 October 2011 11:27

... specially with the shipping charges to the rest of the world. USD $19.90 seems a lot to ship a small item. I really hope USPS becomes an option soon.



Yes, that fee would break me, especially with more charges at the door.

We can only hope that 3D printing picks up steam and that very soon there will be printing services in our own countries. I know that if I had a ton of money to throw around I would be investing in this business!

Glenn


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Re: New price structure [message #35685 is a reply to message #35681 ] Sun, 02 October 2011 13:22 UTC Go to previous messageGo to next message
avatar glehn  is currently offline glehn
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lensman wrote on Sun, 02 October 2011 13:14


We can only hope that 3D printing picks up steam and that very soon there will be printing services in our own countries



That would be great, unfortunately I don't think it will happen here in Brazil any time soon... Sad
Does anybody ... [message #35686 is a reply to message #34810 ] Sun, 02 October 2011 13:25 UTC Go to previous messageGo to next message
avatar kontor_apart  is currently offline kontor_apart
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... believe a customer would buy from a site like this ?

I don't.

http://www.shapeways.com/model/315101/now_that_they_screwed_ the_rest_out_of_it.html

index.php?t=getfile&id=11246&private=0

  • Attachment: thank you.jpg
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Re: New price structure [message #35688 is a reply to message #35660 ] Sun, 02 October 2011 13:50 UTC Go to previous messageGo to next message
avatar B1lancer  is currently offline B1lancer
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stop4stuff wrote on Sun, 02 October 2011 10:26

The old pricing structure did not have postage as a % of the model cost, the deal was $25 minimum order with shipping included. You might interpret that as a % of the model cost, but what if the model cost was only $15? With the new pricing structure the total cost is slightly less (or more, depending which part of the world the model is shupped to.)

.





Of course the old pricing structure did! Unless UPS were giving Shapeways free postage?

The reason for the minimum order was so that Shapeways covered their costs of postage, this implies that a percentage of that $25 was kept aside to cover postage costs.

For example, a $25 order may break down as such:

$6 Postage

$7 Model production costs

$5 Handling

$7 Profit

My question is now we pay postage seperately we should see that $6 removed from our order cost by making the materials or handling fee slightly cheaper, right?

[Updated on: Sun, 02 October 2011 13:52 UTC]

Re: Does anybody ... [message #35689 is a reply to message #35686 ] Sun, 02 October 2011 14:08 UTC Go to previous messageGo to next message
avatar lensman  is currently offline lensman
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trompevenlo wrote on Sun, 02 October 2011 13:25

... believe a customer would buy from a site like this ?

I don't.



Nope, I wouldn't. Very disturbing.

If I were head of programming for the website I would be looking for another job right now... and leaving Shapeways off my resume!

Glenn


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Re: New price structure [message #35690 is a reply to message #35688 ] Sun, 02 October 2011 14:15 UTC Go to previous messageGo to next message
avatar Magic  is currently offline Magic
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@B1lancer The problem is that perhaps for this $25 order the profit for Shapeways was negative.
Small orders (nothing smaller than $25 at that time, right?) were subsidized by big orders.
A business were small orders are subsidized by big orders can only survive if you give incentives for big orders (like the same shipping fee whatever the number of ordered items is, or same handling fees whatever the size of the item is).

[Updated on: Sun, 02 October 2011 14:43 UTC]


So many things to design, so little time...
Re: New price structure [message #35692 is a reply to message #35664 ] Sun, 02 October 2011 14:27 UTC Go to previous messageGo to next message
avatar BillBedford  is currently offline BillBedford
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glehn wrote on Sun, 02 October 2011 11:27


That's not completely accurate. At least here in Brazil, if the package is sent by USPS, there are only import taxes. No brokerage fees.
Besides, brazilian Customs taxes mail packages based on sampling. Courier packages, such as UPS, are always taxed.
So, usually, my orders when sent by UPS cost me 100% more in taxes and fees. If they were sent by USPS it would be only 60% and as they don't tax every single mail package, there is always a chance of not being taxed (on my other internet purchases usually I am only taxed 1/3 of my orders).


Ordinary mail parcel are not tracked, which is probably why there are sampled for customs. So if your parcel goes astray it will be lost for good.
It would not necessarily be much cheaper either, a 1Kg parcel from the UK to Brazil would cost either £17 or £26 ($25.50 or $39) depending on the service. It's likely Shapeways could get a good discount on these prices but there would still be no guarantees for delivery.



Bill Bedford
Re: Does anybody ... [message #35697 is a reply to message #35686 ] Sun, 02 October 2011 15:36 UTC Go to previous messageGo to next message
avatar designerica  is currently offline designerica
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wow those screen shots are ridiculous.

shapeways is trying to do a lot of new stuff. there are bound to be problems. i still think simplifying things rather than complicating things should be the answer.

it's impossible to do everything at once, as evidenced by the problems with warnings and programming bugs. look at ponoko- they're not trying to fill retail orders. they're filling wholesale orders to designer/vendors who re-package. they have a marketplace, but it's not direct-to-consumer.

does anyone here make significant money selling their designs directly through shapeways? if yes, please say so. i really want to know.
Re: New price structure [message #35698 is a reply to message #35692 ] Sun, 02 October 2011 15:43 UTC Go to previous messageGo to next message
avatar glehn  is currently offline glehn
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BillBedford wrote on Sun, 02 October 2011 14:27


Ordinary mail parcel are not tracked, which is probably why there are sampled for customs. So if your parcel goes astray it will be lost for good.
It would not necessarily be much cheaper either, a 1Kg parcel from the UK to Brazil would cost either £17 or £26 ($25.50 or $39) depending on the service. It's likely Shapeways could get a good discount on these prices but there would still be no guarantees for delivery.



That's not accurate either. Ordinary mail can be tracked and insured.
Even for USPS First Class Mail International, which is cheaper and officially not trackable, I can track it when it gets into brazilian territory if the sender gives me the Customs Form number, which he had to fill to be able to send it anyway.
My models are all small and weight just a few grams. I don't think any of my orders ever reached 1kg. So, I would expect the rates to be much smaller. I had bought several items from UK internet stores and ebay.co.uk over the years, and I don't recall paying more than 7 or 8 pounds for shipping (with insurance).

Luis

[Updated on: Sun, 02 October 2011 15:44 UTC]

Re: New price structure [message #35699 is a reply to message #35690 ] Sun, 02 October 2011 16:08 UTC Go to previous messageGo to next message
avatar B1lancer  is currently offline B1lancer
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Magic wrote on Sun, 02 October 2011 14:15

@B1lancer The problem is that perhaps for this $25 order the profit for Shapeways was negative.
Small orders (nothing smaller than $25 at that time, right?) were subsidized by big orders.
A business were small orders are subsidized by big orders can only survive if you give incentives for big orders (like the same shipping fee whatever the number of ordered items is, or same handling fees whatever the size of the item is).




If that was the issue then doing as I suggested earlier and increasing the free shipping price cap to say $40 would be an incentive for people to maker larger orders instead instead of several small orders.

I know a little about running a business and the only reason I'd have more expensive products subsidising cheaper products would be if the cheaper products could generate more expensive product orders than plain advertising and at the same time be cheaper than just plain advertising.

Something has fundamentally changed at Shapeways and it isn't for the better. Sad

Re: New price structure [message #35700 is a reply to message #35699 ] Sun, 02 October 2011 16:23 UTC Go to previous messageGo to next message
avatar mctrivia  is currently offline mctrivia
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The problem with the free shipping is I could make a 1cm cube in wsf costs $3.00 at old pricing $2.90 now. And put $23 markup then shipping would be free for my customers.


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Re: New price structure [message #35701 is a reply to message #35700 ] Sun, 02 October 2011 16:46 UTC Go to previous messageGo to next message
avatar B1lancer  is currently offline B1lancer
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mctrivia wrote on Sun, 02 October 2011 16:23

The problem with the free shipping is I could make a 1cm cube in wsf costs $3.00 at old pricing $2.90 now. And put $23 markup then shipping would be free for my customers.


Whilst that is true, it is simple enough to put some restrictions in place to prevent that happening.

For example, markups are only paid on orders where the actual model prices are >$25

That would be fair enough, Shapeways cover their costs and Shop owners are encouraged to make bigger models/sell greater numbers of smaller products in a single order.

So 1 model that costs $15 to produce with a $15 Markup you'd receive nothing. But selling 2 models that cost $15 each with a markup of $15 each you'd get paid your $30, Shapeways would have their covered their costs and would have 2 models in a single order rather than two seperate orders with just 1 model in.


Regards,

Jack

[Updated on: Sun, 02 October 2011 16:47 UTC]

Re: New price structure [message #35702 is a reply to message #34810 ] Sun, 02 October 2011 17:02 UTC Go to previous messageGo to next message
avatar aeron203  is currently offline aeron203
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@B1B - I can't say I like that idea, because any item with such a low production cost but a $15 markup would undoubtedly be a co-creator model. Several of my co-creators are under $25 even with the markup. In your example that means I would have to do the work of modifying and uploading the model, but I wouldn't get paid unless they order two copies? That seems really arbitrary and I'm not sure who benefits from that. The current pricing structure reflects the actual costs involved, and I don't think it's that big of a deal that it is more complicated, since the software is telling you your price, right in front of you.


Aaron - 40westdesigns.com/blog
Re: New price structure [message #35703 is a reply to message #35701 ] Sun, 02 October 2011 17:03 UTC Go to previous messageGo to next message
avatar mctrivia  is currently offline mctrivia
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That wold not be fair at all. Most of my models are under 3cc. I have no control of how many my customers want to buy. If it is a one o cutom order $20+ markup may be justified for my time.


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Re: New price structure [message #35704 is a reply to message #35701 ] Sun, 02 October 2011 17:07 UTC Go to previous messageGo to next message
avatar ana  is currently offline ana
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Hey Jack,

While your scenario could turn out to be true, that's also notably more complicated than our present structure. Trying to have one behavior offset the other just didn't work very well last time.

We chose simply to reveal the costs we were incurring more accurately, and allow people to make their own choices about what they buy.



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Re: New price structure [message #35705 is a reply to message #35703 ] Sun, 02 October 2011 17:07 UTC Go to previous messageGo to next message
avatar ana  is currently offline ana
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@mctrivia Yes, exactly.


Community Manager | Shapeways

Re: New price structure [message #35706 is a reply to message #35704 ] Sun, 02 October 2011 17:23 UTC Go to previous messageGo to next message
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ana wrote on Sun, 02 October 2011 17:07

Hey Jack,

While your scenario could turn out to be true, that's also notably more complicated than our present structure. Trying to have one behavior offset the other just didn't work very well last time.

We chose simply to reveal the costs we were incurring more accurately, and allow people to make their own choices about what they buy.





Yes, it was a bit of an off the cuff idea. What I am trying to understand and still don't understand is why the material cost and handling cost is the same whilst the postage is more, how can the material and handling costs be the same when they used to include shipping?

Surely the old cost of shipping should be deducted from the new material and handling costs now shipping is seperate?

Regards,

Jack
Re: New price structure [message #35708 is a reply to message #35706 ] Sun, 02 October 2011 17:39 UTC Go to previous messageGo to next message
avatar lensman  is currently offline lensman
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B1lancer wrote on Sun, 02 October 2011 17:23



Surely the old cost of shipping should be deducted from the new material and handling costs now shipping is seperate?



Maybe they did, Jack. Maybe their pricing structure was so out of whack that this now evens it out... however, I must admit I had those exact thoughts myself.

Glenn


Glenn ------ My Website Third Dimension Jewellery
Re: New price structure [message #35709 is a reply to message #35703 ] Sun, 02 October 2011 17:43 UTC Go to previous messageGo to next message
avatar B1lancer  is currently offline B1lancer
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mctrivia wrote on Sun, 02 October 2011 17:03

That wold not be fair at all. Most of my models are under 3cc. I have no control of how many my customers want to buy. If it is a one o cutom order $20+ markup may be justified for my time.


I am thinking along these lines, keep in mind this is just a couple of minutes thought so could be flawed and is a best case scenario Smile

The idea is that you'd encourage your customers to buy more than one model or one bigger model, so you'd bundle two or three rings, dice, etc, this way your customer is buying 3 items or 1 bigger item to be shipped in one package rather than 3 seperate packages over time.

The benefit to you is that you'll be selling bigger (or a greater quantity of) models.

Not many people are going to pay $10+$15 Markup for a model and then $20 shipping (total $45), more people would buy bigger (or greater quantity of) models for $25+$20 Markup with free shipping.

You'll generate a $20 (bigger) markup, Shapeways get less packages to ship, bigger, easier models to clean, generate more profit and the customer pays exactly the same.

Regards,

Jack


[Updated on: Sun, 02 October 2011 17:49 UTC]

Re: New price structure [message #35710 is a reply to message #35709 ] Sun, 02 October 2011 18:09 UTC Go to previous messageGo to next message
avatar mctrivia  is currently offline mctrivia
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Who wants a die that is 20cc? Bigger is not always Better. The new price structure is fair. And they can always reduce costs in the future if they find it is overpriced.


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Re: New price structure [message #35711 is a reply to message #34810 ] Sun, 02 October 2011 18:10 UTC Go to previous messageGo to next message
avatar designerica  is currently offline designerica
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the toughest part of this price issue right now is the suddenness and the significance for my best-selling items. a model that previously cost me 5.00 in steel now costs 10.00. that's a 100% increase, not including shipping. i could handle an increase of a dollar or two. but 100%?

i realize that the 5.00 was probably losing you money. but the 10.00 means i can't make them at all, so is that better? if i upload two at a time (same work for you as a pair of earrings, right?), it averages to 7. i can handle 7.

isn't there a way to make it work for everyone? aren't there enough of us who are willing to join a club to become prime members to receive preferential treatment and/or discounts, the income from which could help offset these issues until you figure it out?

i realize that you are trying to be transparent, but clearly you cannot achieve complete transparency. every order has to contribute to paying the salaries of every person who works at shapeways, whether they work on a specific order or not. the money to pay the people who are responding to all these messages has to come out of our orders, too. transparency is a fiction. what's important is that you come up with a system that works.

pete's not wrong, these prices are not necessarily too high for custom-made items. but that's easy for me to understand, and much harder for my customer to understand when my items double in price. am i supposed to eat the difference? how can i ever build a business if my prices might double in the course of a week?

i will admit to having "abused" the system in the past. i thought nothing of it-- especially with regard to steel since it didn't affect the price. i question why you wouldn't crack down on abuse of the system-- or at least ask us not to abuse it-- BEFORE raising prices.

[Updated on: Sun, 02 October 2011 18:22 UTC]

Re: New price structure [message #35712 is a reply to message #34810 ] Sun, 02 October 2011 18:15 UTC Go to previous messageGo to previous message
avatar virtox  is currently offline virtox
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I have had the opportunity to visit the Eindhoven office tour last Friday.
Very cool to meet many Shapies again, but we also got an in depth view of the whole customer service and production chain.

While the local production is limited to Strong & Flexible, the amount of people and work involved going from ordering to planning to production, polishing/cleaning, quality control, packaging and shipping is pretty insane.

Not to forget the love and care these people show during all of this, they are a happy, but very hardworking bunch, some people work sixty hours (or more) a week to keep everyone as happy as possible.

Actually I'm surprised, handling costs are not even higher..

I personally am happy with the new more transparent pricing.
The previously hidden and shared cost of handling and shipping never seems to make much sense.

And since some materials did show lower prices to compensate for the external new shipping and handling costs. I assume that if a material did drop in price, previously you got it under production cost..


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