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HELP! Panoramic camera [message #24915] Thu, 17 March 2011 03:32 UTC Go to next message
avatar mgrynberg  is currently offline mgrynberg
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So I finally got my big order... Parts for my home made 6x17 medium format panoramic camera.

I'm very excited and slightly disapointed at the same time... And I still have lots of work before I can take photos with this sucker...

First, BSF is just painted WSF??? I had no clue... Makes sense for production ease, but I would have liked to know...

Second, tolerances are really not what I expected... I guess the black paint is mostly to blame. It's not so bad that it can't be fixed by some sanding, but I expected tighter precision...

Last, the 10 day window was missed, by not that much but missed... just a bummer since the test parts tool much less time to arrive, but at least it's here now...

I started integrating some external parts for the film winding mechanism, taping holes, etc, but it will definitely take longer than I thought...

I'll keep posting on progress...

index.php?t=getfile&id=7608&private=0
parts ordered

index.php?t=getfile&id=7609&private=0
with the other things that need to be somehow attached together Smile

[Updated on: Thu, 24 March 2011 02:17 UTC]

Re: Panoramic camera [message #24917 is a reply to message #24915 ] Thu, 17 March 2011 08:04 UTC Go to previous messageGo to next message
avatar bitstoatoms  is currently offline bitstoatoms
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Hi there,
An ambitious first project!

The BSF is dyed as per the materials page, maybe we need to call it dyed strong flexible: Black in the ordering options?

http://www.shapeways.com/materials/white_strong_flexible

Please do keep sharing your progress along with any issues you have so that we can learn from them..

Best of luck


Duann Scott

Re: Panoramic camera [message #24918 is a reply to message #24917 ] Thu, 17 March 2011 08:25 UTC Go to previous messageGo to next message
avatar Innovo  is currently offline Innovo
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drscott wrote on Thu, 17 March 2011 08:04



The BSF is dyed as per the materials page, maybe we need to call it dyed strong flexible: Black in the ordering options?

http://www.shapeways.com/materials/white_strong_flexible




Yes, please do that...
I missed it too and was very disappointed with my last order.



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Re: Panoramic camera [message #24919 is a reply to message #24918 ] Thu, 17 March 2011 08:38 UTC Go to previous messageGo to next message
avatar bitstoatoms  is currently offline bitstoatoms
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Ok,

We will try and make this clearer.

Thanks again for the feedback


Duann Scott

Re: Panoramic camera [message #24922 is a reply to message #24919 ] Thu, 17 March 2011 13:59 UTC Go to previous messageGo to next message
avatar mgrynberg  is currently offline mgrynberg
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Thanks, Duann.

Yes, it would help.
I'm not sure how I missed that but it would be helpful to have it more clearly stated at the ordering stage.
I just needed the inside of the parts black (to stop light from bouncing around in the camera) so I could have painted them and saved myself about USD70...

Oh well, next time I'll read more thoroughly Embarassed

It is indeed an ambitious first project but oh so gratifying Very Happy

Marc
Re: Panoramic camera [message #24931 is a reply to message #24922 ] Thu, 17 March 2011 15:40 UTC Go to previous messageGo to next message
avatar ana  is currently offline ana
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Hey guys, good to hear the feedback on BSF.

@mgrynberg Definitely keep us up to date, I'm excited to see the progress!


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Re: Panoramic camera [message #24990 is a reply to message #24931 ] Sat, 19 March 2011 00:57 UTC Go to previous messageGo to next message
avatar mgrynberg  is currently offline mgrynberg
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update...

With a few hours of work I mounted the lens to the cone and the cone to the body without too many issues... Took a while because I had to drill the aluminium lens plate and open up the holes on the printed parts a bit more to fit the threaded inserts.

Did some focus testing, looks good... Will test infinity focus tomorrow morning. That's the critical part...

The planned viewfinder looks like it's gonna work out, so I need to place the order for the custom bracket I modeled...

Minor issue with the advance mechanism, the knob that I had modeled a while back doesn't fit, but I'll figure something out...

Still many small details to figure out, but if it all goes well tomorrow I'll be able to take it for a few test shots on Sunday...

More to come...

index.php?t=getfile&id=7627&private=0

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Re: Panoramic camera [message #25069 is a reply to message #24990 ] Mon, 21 March 2011 15:14 UTC Go to previous messageGo to next message
avatar ana  is currently offline ana
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Whoooaaa Smile

Very exciting. Looking forward to seeing how those test shots went.


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Re: Panoramic camera [message #25072 is a reply to message #25069 ] Mon, 21 March 2011 15:26 UTC Go to previous messageGo to next message
avatar mgrynberg  is currently offline mgrynberg
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I think it went well... everything was functionning very smoothly... Now it seems it's all up to me and my photographic abilities Razz

I'm getting the film back today so I should be able to post tonight...

Now the last piece (just ordered) is the bracket for the viewfinder, I'll post a photo of the full system when I receive it...

Marc

[Updated on: Mon, 21 March 2011 15:27 UTC]

Re: Panoramic camera [message #25077 is a reply to message #25072 ] Mon, 21 March 2011 15:38 UTC Go to previous messageGo to next message
avatar mgrynberg  is currently offline mgrynberg
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Oooh one other thing that I forgot about BSF...
So in the picture above it looks dark grey more than black... But in daylight, it actually looks deep blue-purple grey... Not black at all... I was surprised... Not sure what the issue is, bad dye batch maybe?

Not a real problem for me since this is a functional object, not art, but an artist designing something that would be expected black might have an issue if the print turns out with a purple hue...

Marc
Re: Panoramic camera [message #25091 is a reply to message #25077 ] Mon, 21 March 2011 18:28 UTC Go to previous messageGo to next message
avatar mgrynberg  is currently offline mgrynberg
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Uuuugh... the test roll is a total fail... not sure what happened... most likely I mishandled the film. Or the camera has huge light leaks. Or the lab totally messed up... No way of knowing, the whole roll is basically blank... And I won't be able to try again before next weekend so I won't know what the issue is for another week... Crying or Very Sad

Anyhow I'll post as soon as I have something tangible...
Re: Panoramic camera [message #25095 is a reply to message #25091 ] Mon, 21 March 2011 19:47 UTC Go to previous messageGo to next message
avatar bitstoatoms  is currently offline bitstoatoms
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Wow,

what an adventure, looks pretty impressive now it is assembled, good luck with the photos, and please do share as soon as they work.

Cheers


Duann Scott

Re: Panoramic camera [message #25209 is a reply to message #25095 ] Thu, 24 March 2011 02:11 UTC Go to previous messageGo to next message
avatar mgrynberg  is currently offline mgrynberg
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I just figured out the problem... the material is not light proof...
I had assumed that BSF was solid black. But since it's dyed WSF, it is translucent... I can see light from a flashlight trough even the thickest parts of the body (5mm+ thick).

Now what? How can I fix this? I'm a bit lost guys... Any idea besides wrapping the whole thing in gaffers tape?
Re: Panoramic camera [message #25212 is a reply to message #25209 ] Thu, 24 March 2011 03:50 UTC Go to previous messageGo to next message
avatar stannum  is currently offline stannum
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Cover all with metal plates or glued foil (inside? outside? space and uglyness will tell...), to be sure no light ray can pass, then paint (or even flock then paint) it matte black to be sure if it passes, it doesn't bounce much.
Re: Panoramic camera [message #25228 is a reply to message #25212 ] Thu, 24 March 2011 12:53 UTC Go to previous messageGo to next message
avatar mgrynberg  is currently offline mgrynberg
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Thanks for the reply stannum.
I was thinking about foil, but using it inside would create more problems than anything... I found a flocked light trapping material for telescopes, but I'm not sure I have the space inside...
I may just end up layering foil on the outside and maybe spray paint over it...

Any other ideas?
Re: HELP! Panoramic camera [message #25229 is a reply to message #24915 ] Thu, 24 March 2011 13:02 UTC Go to previous messageGo to next message
avatar Youknowwho4eva  is currently offline Youknowwho4eva
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What about a thick coat of a black epoxy paint on the outside?


I learned a long time ago the wisest thing I can do is be on my own side, be an advocate for myself and others like me. -Maya Angelou
michael@shapeways.com Community Advocate
Re: HELP! Panoramic camera [message #25230 is a reply to message #25229 ] Thu, 24 March 2011 13:10 UTC Go to previous messageGo to next message
avatar mgrynberg  is currently offline mgrynberg
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Thanks Youknowwho4eva.
I know nothing about paints, etc, would it make the thing light proof?
Define thick coat... how easy/hard is epoxy paint to apply? does it come in spray form?
Re: HELP! Panoramic camera [message #30129 is a reply to message #25230 ] Sun, 03 July 2011 00:17 UTC Go to previous messageGo to next message
avatar willrogers  is currently offline willrogers
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hi @mgrynberg,

Just wondering if you ended up painting the camera, and if this worked stopping the light leaks, as I'm looking to do something similar.

Cheers
Re: HELP! Panoramic camera [message #30130 is a reply to message #30129 ] Sun, 03 July 2011 01:43 UTC Go to previous messageGo to next message
avatar mgrynberg  is currently offline mgrynberg
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Hey Will,

I didn't have a chance to get this done yet.

Right now I'm looking at Krylon Fusion paint which is specifically made to bond with plastics, but I'm not sure if it will make the camera light proof or how many coats I would need...
I'll post any progress when I get around to doing it...

Also let me know if you figure anything out...
What's your project?

Marc
Re: HELP! Panoramic camera [message #30132 is a reply to message #24915 ] Sun, 03 July 2011 02:11 UTC Go to previous messageGo to next message
avatar berrynaut  is currently offline berrynaut
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Good to know that the BSF is not light proof ... I have been thinking about revitalizing my old cameras.

You could always go along to a car spray painters - they could do a nice finish that would be quite thick.

Can't wait to see how your finished camera ends up looking like!
Re: HELP! Panoramic camera [message #30134 is a reply to message #30130 ] Sun, 03 July 2011 06:56 UTC Go to previous messageGo to next message
avatar willrogers  is currently offline willrogers
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Quote:

Right now I'm looking at Krylon Fusion paint which is specifically made to bond with plastics, but I'm not sure if it will make the camera light proof or how many coats I would need...
I'll post any progress when I get around to doing it..


Yea, im thinking this is what i'll end up doing as well, I'm doing a couple of tests with some simple black spray paint on clear plastic, to see how opaque it gets and will let you know how it goes... Or like berrynaut said, maybe getting it professionally painted is the way to go...

I was also thinking maybe some of the other materials (maybe the black detail or grey robust) might give a more lightproof finish, but at any rate the extra cost of these is prohibitive for me.

Quote:

What's your project?


I'm looking to make a simple 35mm Pinhole camera, (have attached a render), and am thinking of getting it printed in WSF, (as it ends up being ridiculously expensive in any other material) and painting it black to get it lightproof.

index.php?t=getfile&id=9774&private=0

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Re: HELP! Panoramic camera [message #30147 is a reply to message #30134 ] Sun, 03 July 2011 14:34 UTC Go to previous messageGo to next message
avatar mgrynberg  is currently offline mgrynberg
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Very cool project!

What are you using for the pinhole itself?
Is that white lever at the end of the cone a handle for a dark slide to act as shutter?
How will you be keeping track of film advance so you don't overlap images?

The wall thickness obviously plays a big role in the light tightness... On my model, most surfaces are 3mm thick and definitely translucent. some parts that I built up to 6mm for reinforcement are good tho...

Also - and this really depends on the kind of tripod head you will be using - I built an arca-swiss type plate into the model to use straight in my tripod head without having to screw a plate, and it really works great...

Marc
Re: HELP! Panoramic camera [message #30148 is a reply to message #30147 ] Sun, 03 July 2011 14:50 UTC Go to previous messageGo to next message
avatar mctrivia  is currently offline mctrivia
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There are a few things I would do.


1) Print in WSF
2) Let sit in a black die bath overnight so the die soaks all the way through instead of just outer layers.(you will need an insulated container to keep the die water warm so long)
3) check opacity of material. If good enough stop
4) coat inside of parts with black electrical potting compound. This is a 2 part epocky that is fire retardant and light retardant. You will have to do 1 side at a time as it will flow with gravity and takes 24 hours to completely harden(unless you put in the oven then it takes an hour but don't think WSF will take heat).

Actually I would probably try to print out of PLA on my printer and skip to step 4 but I assume you don't have one if you are making large prints like this at shapeways.


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Re: HELP! Panoramic camera [message #30160 is a reply to message #30148 ] Sun, 03 July 2011 23:20 UTC Go to previous messageGo to next message
avatar mgrynberg  is currently offline mgrynberg
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Thanks for the idea mctrivia.
I unfortunately don't have space inside the camera for a layer of any material. It's a very tight squeeze there...
But I will investigate the potting compound for an outside layer.

Marc
Re: Panoramic camera [message #33197 is a reply to message #25209 ] Wed, 24 August 2011 00:52 UTC Go to previous messageGo to next message
avatar Caseyhooligan  is currently offline Caseyhooligan
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I've painted plastic prototypes before that needed to be totally opaque and the solution that worked well for me was to spray a thin but even coat of silver on the critical areas then cover that with a coating of very flat black.
It sounds strange but works well at keeping light out.
I suppose you could liken the silver to a coating of alum. foil.

Nice work by the way!

[Updated on: Wed, 24 August 2011 00:54 UTC]

Re: Panoramic camera [message #33201 is a reply to message #33197 ] Wed, 24 August 2011 02:16 UTC Go to previous messageGo to next message
avatar mgrynberg  is currently offline mgrynberg
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Thanks for the tip, Casey.

I have still to try an outside coat of a product called milliput that was recommended by some modeling guys in a shop here, but I like your idea better...
I'm also gonna give it a shot because it would enable me to coat the inside of the camera and keep the outside looking good...

Any details on the kind of silver paint? Just regular krylon type spray or something else?

Thanks again!

Marc
Re: Panoramic camera [message #33204 is a reply to message #33201 ] Wed, 24 August 2011 02:50 UTC Go to previous messageGo to next message
avatar Caseyhooligan  is currently offline Caseyhooligan
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Marc,
Try Krylon Fusion spray cans:
Textured Shimmer Silver #2520
and
Flat Black #2519

Silver on first, then black over that.

This SLS nylon material needs paint designed for plastics.
Also, apply a first coat of silver and test to see if it is light-resistant enough, if not then apply another coat of silver until you're happy, and finally spray enough flat black to cover up the silver. Go easy though, It rarely takes much paint to do the job.
I'd be inclined only to do this to the inside of these parts as well.

Good luck and let us know how it goes!

Casey
Re: Panoramic camera [message #33205 is a reply to message #33201 ] Wed, 24 August 2011 02:50 UTC Go to previous messageGo to next message
avatar TreadshotA1  is currently offline TreadshotA1
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A coating of Milliput? I use that stuff very often, and it's not suitable for thin coats. It's an epoxy putty, not a spray or a paint. I would stay away from it for this camera project.
Re: Panoramic camera [message #33206 is a reply to message #33205 ] Wed, 24 August 2011 02:59 UTC Go to previous messageGo to next message
avatar mgrynberg  is currently offline mgrynberg
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Treadshot A1: thanks for the comment. I know it's not a spray solution, it kind of my nuclear option since the modelling guys throught I could not have full opacity with paint only... If all else fails, as a last resort I would coat the outside of the camera with milliput and have me a nice little rock looking camera Smile

Casey: thanks a bunch, I'll definitely try that silver spray first Smile
Re: Panoramic camera [message #33207 is a reply to message #33205 ] Wed, 24 August 2011 03:08 UTC Go to previous messageGo to next message
avatar stannum  is currently offline stannum
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Treadshot A1: have you ever used milliput slurry? That's probably what the modeling guys were talking about.

Edit: that you can "paint" with milliput doesn't imply that such fine coat will be opaque enough for this task. Paints with lots of pigment, or extras like mineral or metal particles, are probably a better approach to blocking light.

[Updated on: Wed, 24 August 2011 18:15 UTC]

Re: Panoramic camera [message #33209 is a reply to message #33206 ] Wed, 24 August 2011 03:53 UTC Go to previous messageGo to next message
avatar Caseyhooligan  is currently offline Caseyhooligan
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My pleasure, I'll be watching you're camera project closely as I'm wanting to design and make functional parts for myself using Shapeway's materials. There are a lot of people designing and making parts here that are asthetic or artistic but not many people like yourself trying to make mechanical devices.
Thanks for sharing your progress!
Re: Panoramic camera [message #34559 is a reply to message #33209 ] Mon, 19 September 2011 01:31 UTC Go to previous messageGo to next message
avatar mgrynberg  is currently offline mgrynberg
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Hi all,
Just a quick update, I finally got to testing Casey's recommendation...
And compared to the other fixes, it's definitely the best given my manual skill level...
I went a bit nuts on my test sample with 3 coats of silver texture, but it's definitely opaque now...
So next step, break down the camera a spray it...
Will update when I'm done...
Thanks again to all of you who sent me all the tips and precious advice...
Marc
Hopefully fixed! Panoramic camera [message #35283 is a reply to message #34559 ] Tue, 27 September 2011 23:21 UTC Go to previous messageGo to next message
avatar mgrynberg  is currently offline mgrynberg
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Ok so I did some painting this weekend, looks half decent...
3 coats silver texture, 2 coats flat black...
Prelim tests with flashlight look ok, can't see anything go through...
Next step: load some film and go for a walk once the paint fully cures...

I attached a photo of the fully assembled camera including viewfinder (3d printed bracket for camcorder wide angle conversion lens), and knobs that were missing last time...

I also put a US quarter coin next to it for size reference... It's a big machine...

Will update on Monday with the results of the weekend test shoot...

Marc

index.php?t=getfile&id=11194&private=0

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Re: Hopefully fixed! Panoramic camera [message #35331 is a reply to message #35283 ] Wed, 28 September 2011 15:13 UTC Go to previous messageGo to next message
avatar Caseyhooligan  is currently offline Caseyhooligan
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Nice job!
Re: HELP! Panoramic camera [message #35368 is a reply to message #24915 ] Wed, 28 September 2011 21:40 UTC Go to previous messageGo to next message
avatar Datto  is currently offline Datto
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That's a very handsome camera! Glad you found a good solution for making the material opaque (Good call, Casey!)
Re: HELP! Panoramic camera [message #35620 is a reply to message #35368 ] Sat, 01 October 2011 21:08 UTC Go to previous messageGo to next message
avatar mgrynberg  is currently offline mgrynberg
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Ok so I went to shoot this morning and got my roll back this afternoon...
1 of 4 images came back somewhat almost decent... It was the first one, shot from inside, in the shade.
The other 3, taken from outisde with the camera in the sun are totally unusable... So there are still *major* light leaks...

The camera definitely works besides the light leaks... it's super sharp, functions very smoothly, and is definitely a conversation starter in the street...

Although it's been a lot of fun, I think this might be the end of the project... Not sure where to take it from there to make it work reliably...

Anyhow, thanks to everyone for the support!

Marc

index.php?t=getfile&id=11239&private=0

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Re: HELP! Panoramic camera [message #35631 is a reply to message #35620 ] Sun, 02 October 2011 01:33 UTC Go to previous messageGo to next message
avatar Datto  is currently offline Datto
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Are the light leaks from a general lack of opacity, or are they from gaps in joins? If the latter, could you use some kind of gasket material, or black velvet perhaps?
Re: HELP! Panoramic camera [message #37567 is a reply to message #35631 ] Fri, 28 October 2011 21:54 UTC Go to previous messageGo to next message
avatar erckgillis  is currently offline erckgillis
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I also suggest that the light leaks can be solved. The gaps and joins must have seals or gaskets. Also in the WSF you were looking for visible light leaks, also consider UV and IR when in daylight!

Some Krylon silver and other metallic paints are not real metals so are opaque in certain wavelengths. Consider these spray ons below and or using a simple electroplating for a full metallic cover.

hope you don't give up!

http://caswellplating.com/vht/index.html


Ed
ERCK Store
Re: HELP! Panoramic camera [message #37570 is a reply to message #37567 ] Fri, 28 October 2011 22:14 UTC Go to previous messageGo to next message
avatar mgrynberg  is currently offline mgrynberg
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Thanks for the suggestions, Ed.
Right now I'm trying to spend more time actually shooting rather than being at home trying to fix this camera...
Might get back to it in the future if I have time to spare...
If I do, I'll definitely look into your solutions.

Thanks again!

Marc
Re: HELP! Panoramic camera [message #37867 is a reply to message #35620 ] Thu, 03 November 2011 14:55 UTC Go to previous messageGo to previous message
avatar lensman  is currently offline lensman
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mgrynberg wrote on Sat, 01 October 2011 21:08

Ok so I went to shoot this morning and got my roll back this afternoon...


So how long will it be before the phrase "I got my roll back" means absolutely nothing to anyone reading it....?

I'm a former professional photographer and just love black and white pic's. Great project and congrat's.

Glenn


Glenn ------ My Website Third Dimension Jewellery

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