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Re: Cease and Desist [message #30553 is a reply to message #30545 ] Sun, 10 July 2011 12:16 UTC Go to previous messageGo to next message
avatar lensman  is currently offline lensman
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tebee wrote on Sat, 09 July 2011 22:47

Maybe we should all make one - see how many cease and desists we can get them to send out Twisted Evil


Ha, I was thinking that very thing when I saw it!

Glenn


Glenn ------ My Website Third Dimension Jewellery
Re: Cease and Desist [message #30570 is a reply to message #30553 ] Sun, 10 July 2011 20:59 UTC Go to previous messageGo to next message
avatar stop4stuff  is currently offline stop4stuff
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lensman wrote on Sun, 10 July 2011 12:16

tebee wrote on Sat, 09 July 2011 22:47

Maybe we should all make one - see how many cease and desists we can get them to send out Twisted Evil


Ha, I was thinking that very thing when I saw it!

Glenn



I'm up for that too Twisted Evil
Re: Cease and Desist [message #30573 is a reply to message #28930 ] Sun, 10 July 2011 21:10 UTC Go to previous messageGo to next message
avatar tebee  is currently offline tebee
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Well the one on Thingverse is PD licensed so we could all use that - it's hollow, though lumps on it aren't hollowed out - but - it has no hole to the inside, so it would need one of them adding to fit Shapways requirements.
Re: Cease and Desist [message #30576 is a reply to message #30573 ] Sun, 10 July 2011 21:43 UTC Go to previous messageGo to next message
avatar stop4stuff  is currently offline stop4stuff
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I'm thinking something quite radical that's clearly based on the 'idea' but is not the same Wink

Re: Cease and Desist [message #30616 is a reply to message #30576 ] Mon, 11 July 2011 15:25 UTC Go to previous messageGo to next message
avatar ana  is currently offline ana
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The rebellious side of me thinks its funny that you want to "poke the bear", but I have to wonder, what would the effect be for Shapeways, the community, and the whole 3D printing industry if we try and get them as upset as possible?

More regulation, more quickly? I wonder...


Community Manager | Shapeways

Re: Cease and Desist [message #30618 is a reply to message #30616 ] Mon, 11 July 2011 15:27 UTC Go to previous messageGo to next message
avatar baltimore  is currently offline baltimore
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What will Shapeways do when they receive their first C&D?


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Re: Cease and Desist [message #30622 is a reply to message #30616 ] Mon, 11 July 2011 15:38 UTC Go to previous messageGo to next message
avatar stop4stuff  is currently offline stop4stuff
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Over history if the little man hadn't stood up to The Man, who knows where we'd be now?

Just a thought, the cube in the film, is it CGI or a physical model, or maybe a bit of both?

Re: Cease and Desist [message #30625 is a reply to message #30616 ] Mon, 11 July 2011 15:46 UTC Go to previous messageGo to next message
avatar tebee  is currently offline tebee
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ana wrote on Mon, 11 July 2011 15:25

The rebellious side of me thinks its funny that you want to "poke the bear", but I have to wonder, what would the effect be for Shapeways, the community, and the whole 3D printing industry if we try and get them as upset as possible?

More regulation, more quickly? I wonder...




Well you might get a lot more publicity out of it..........

But, seriously , maybe it is something that does need to be brought out into the open, I for one am not sure what justification for the original C&D they were trying to use.

3-D objects and 3-D design are in a very gray area of copyright law, it could be having some full and frank discussion about it would be a good thing.

Tom

PS. I'm a man who likes poking bears too - though not the real ones !
Re: Cease and Desist [message #30626 is a reply to message #30622 ] Mon, 11 July 2011 15:47 UTC Go to previous messageGo to next message
avatar ana  is currently offline ana
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@baltimore Good question. Duann and Robert are sort of our two specialists in that area, and they've given it a lot of thought. I think I need to exercise some healthy discretion in my answer though. Wink

@stop4stuff you've got a point. There isn't a clear cut answer on this one.

It's so fun to be able to work with the community leading the way in making the world consider these question. Just sayin'. Smile


Community Manager | Shapeways

Re: Cease and Desist [message #30824 is a reply to message #30626 ] Wed, 13 July 2011 22:42 UTC Go to previous messageGo to next message
avatar minimaker  is currently offline minimaker
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Just a tip for Duann and Robert, something similar to this is what you see in the world of garage kits. These are mostly doll sized vinyl models of usually well known movie characters. I'd expect them to see C&D letters from times to times too.

Also, an US friend of mine is a lawyer and if I remember right he has been involved with cases that were on the copyright issues of certain miniatures. If you want to get in touch with him, mail me and I'll check if he thinks he has info on this.

Perhaps it's an idea if somebody from Shapeways legal department can explain a bit about copyrights, trademarks and patents. I know from experience in the field of miniatures that there is often a lot of misunderstandings on how this works. I know a little more about it (had to find it all out to inform members of my sculpting forum) but am no legal expert.

[Updated on: Wed, 13 July 2011 22:49 UTC]

Re: Cease and Desist [message #30826 is a reply to message #28930 ] Wed, 13 July 2011 22:50 UTC Go to previous messageGo to next message
avatar dizingof  is currently offline dizingof
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One thing we can all agree on... better a cease and desist than a subpoena.. Rolling Eyes





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Re: Cease and Desist [message #31488 is a reply to message #30826 ] Mon, 25 July 2011 18:25 UTC Go to previous messageGo to next message
avatar baltimore  is currently offline baltimore
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Looks like Marvel's lawyers are crawling on Shapeways now.

At least one other member besides myself had their models set to private by shapeways so that shapeways could comply to a take down request from Marvel. I received an email today from Shapeways telling me that some of my models were removed. This is the message that Shapeways received:


Re: NOTICE AND TAKE DOWN – http://www.shapeways.com/


Dear Shapeways Legal Support:

Marvel Entertainment, LLC ("Marvel") is a character-based entertainment company with a proprietary library of over 8,000 characters. Marvel owns or controls the copyrights, trademarks, and other intellectual property rights in and to the following publications and characters featured in such publications: Captain America, Hydra, Iron Man, and Spider-Man, among others.

It has come to our attention that merchants on your site are advertising, soliciting, and selling unauthorized merchandise themed after Marvel's properties. Please see the following links:

[model link removed]
[model link removed]
[model link removed]
[model link removed]
[model link removed]
[model link removed]

Please direct all correspondence to:

Gregory Pan, Legal Affairs
Marvel Entertainment, LLC
135 W. 50th Street, 7th Floor
New York, NY 10020
Phone: (212) 576-4000 ext. 8619
Fax: (212) 572-576-8569
gpan@marvel.com

I have a good faith belief that use of the copyrighted material described above on the allegedly infringing web pages and the linked pages on these pages is not authorized by Marvel, its agent or the law.

I swear, under penalty of perjury, that the information in the notification is accurate and that I am the copyright owner or am authorized to act on behalf of the owner of an exclusive right that is allegedly infringed.

Please act expeditiously to remove the material identified and contact me at (212) 576-4000 ext. 8619, or gpan@marvel.com if you have any questions. Marvel reserves the right to take all available remedies available at law and in equity to protect its interests, and nothing in this letter shall be construed as a waiver or relinquishment of any rights or remedies available to it.

Sincerely,

Gregory Pan


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Re: Cease and Desist [message #31489 is a reply to message #31488 ] Mon, 25 July 2011 18:36 UTC Go to previous messageGo to next message
avatar stop4stuff  is currently offline stop4stuff
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In my opinion Wink, it looks like laywers have found a new preying field to fuel their greed!

Make the model public, but 'not for sale'... shows you got 'teh skillz' without jumping on bunions.

Re: Cease and Desist [message #31496 is a reply to message #31489 ] Mon, 25 July 2011 23:00 UTC Go to previous messageGo to next message
avatar minimaker  is currently offline minimaker
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I think that the publicity with the cube may have gotten shapeways to attract attention of legal depertments. Out of interest, what were these models?

By the way, putting them up as "not for sale" is not a a foolproof way to keep you from being bothered by copyright owners. The right to create derivative are is also protected.
http://www.bitlaw.com/copyright/scope.html#derivative

Though I'd guess that in a court of law there us a chance it would be considered to be a case of fair use. Damn thing about that is that there is no set rule and it has to be decided by the court.
Re: Cease and Desist [message #31497 is a reply to message #31496 ] Mon, 25 July 2011 23:03 UTC Go to previous messageGo to next message
avatar baltimore  is currently offline baltimore
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more information: www.ttbcad.com

renderings of the models are there

[Updated on: Mon, 25 July 2011 23:07 UTC]


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Re: Cease and Desist [message #31498 is a reply to message #28930 ] Mon, 25 July 2011 23:06 UTC Go to previous messageGo to next message
avatar minimaker  is currently offline minimaker
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Thanks for the link
Re: Cease and Desist [message #31499 is a reply to message #31496 ] Mon, 25 July 2011 23:13 UTC Go to previous messageGo to next message
avatar stop4stuff  is currently offline stop4stuff
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minimaker wrote on Mon, 25 July 2011 23:00

I think that the publicity with the cube may have gotten shapeways to attract attention of legal depertments. Out of interest, what were these models?

By the way, putting them up as "not for sale" is not a a foolproof way to keep you from being bothered by copyright owners. The right to create derivative are is also protected.
http://www.bitlaw.com/copyright/scope.html#derivative

Though I'd guess that in a court of law there us a chance it would be considered to be a case of fair use. Damn thing about that is that there is no set rule and it has to be decided by the court.


The thing is though... is this 'Super 8' energy cube a CG object or a real object? There's a bit of a difference of classification between the two.

Putting a model 'not for sale' but public (on Shapeways) means that the model can only be bought by the designer/member and falls within 'fair use' (for personal use only), whereas if made private, the model can be bought by anyone who has the right link as the model is available in at least one material Wink

Tis very grey times we are in Sad
Re: Cease and Desist [message #31502 is a reply to message #31499 ] Tue, 26 July 2011 00:36 UTC Go to previous messageGo to next message
avatar minimaker  is currently offline minimaker
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- The thing is though... is this 'Super 8' energy cube a CG object or a real object? There's a bit of a difference of classification between the two.

For copyright it doesn't matter. The CG and touchable versions of the 'Super 8 energy cube' are derivative works. The CG and touchable versions used in the movie are probably derivative as well as I suspect the original design was a drawing from the design artist. Smile Anyway, creation of derivative work is exclusive to the copyright owner (and whoever gets permission to do so) and that is most likely the movie company.

- Putting a model 'not for sale' but public (on Shapeways) means that the model can only be bought by the designer/member and falls within 'fair use' (for personal use only),

Strictly speaking this would only be the case of there are no pictures. Pictures would be derivative work again. In practice the chances of copyright owner going after you may be smaller. But it's not foolproof. Fair use is not a set rule but more like a set of guidelines for a legal court. In case of conflict they are the only authority that can decide on this. Here is the extract from the US copyright law (notice the use of the words "In determining"):

------------------
§ 107. Limitations on exclusive rights: Fair use

Notwithstanding the provisions of sections 106 and 106A, the fair use of a copyrighted work, including such use by reproduction in copies or phonorecords or by any other means specified by that section, for purposes such as criticism, comment, news reporting, teaching (including multiple copies for classroom use), scholarship, or research, is not an infringement of copyright. In determining whether the use made of a work in any particular case is a fair use the factors to be considered shall include —

(1) the purpose and character of the use, including whether such use is of a commercial nature or is for nonprofit educational purposes;

(2) the nature of the copyrighted work;

(3) the amount and substantiality of the portion used in relation to the copyrighted work as a whole; and

(4) the effect of the use upon the potential market for or value of the copyrighted work.

The fact that a work is unpublished shall not itself bar a finding of fair use if such finding is made upon consideration of all the above factors.
------------------

This was taken from http://www.copyright.gov/title17/ You can find the whole US copyright law there if you want to see it.

So making use "fair use" is more along the lines of "this is likely to be seen as fair use so I feel safe enough using it". As is the case with me quoting the text above. Smile

Note, you may notice that "personal use" is not specifically listed with the purposes. But the situation is a tad more favorable for the person claiming fair use if you look at the four factors. Very Happy

I hope this makes it clearer what I meant to say in my previous message.

By the way, I'm not a copyright expert. I just know a little more about it since I'm a moderator of a sculpting group and I had to study it so I could explain it to the members. There are a lot of misunderstandings on the subject. Law experts: feel free to add and correct. And if you have time, I think a thread explaining about the function and working of copyright law would be useful on this site. Smile

Bye,
Ming-Hua (who really needs to go to sleep now - cya)

[Updated on: Tue, 26 July 2011 00:38 UTC]

Re: Cease and Desist [message #31505 is a reply to message #28930 ] Tue, 26 July 2011 01:18 UTC Go to previous messageGo to next message
avatar CadMonkey  is currently offline CadMonkey
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Would it be worth shapeways having a copyright lawyer on staff that could advise users if a model infringes coypright laws?
Obviously it would be impractical and expensive to check every model, but if a user has created an item and has concerns that it could potentially infringe then they could submit it to be checked (obviously for a small fee).
I believe that some of these large corporate entities would love nothing more than to remove our capacity to self manufacture. So we have an obligation, to shapeways and each other, to avoid producing material that would give these companies a justifiable reason to persue legal action. I mean, at the end of the day, copyright laws are there to protect the earning capacity of people who have invested time and money on producing something. With that said, I think a bit of maturity needs to be exercised on behalf of the copyright holders. Sometimes giving users the capacity to modify and use your copyrighted material can be highly advantageous. Take the Xbox Kinect for example, since releasing the source code the Kinect has found all sorts of appllications increasing the products market.
Don't get me wrong, I'm all for sticking it to the man, but the man has a bad habit of sticking it back with interest.
Re: Cease and Desist [message #31536 is a reply to message #31505 ] Tue, 26 July 2011 04:32 UTC Go to previous messageGo to next message
avatar duann  is currently offline duann
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Hey all,

Just wanted to say you need to take a look at the Shapeways terms of service and content policy

http://www.shapeways.com/legal/content_policy

We must abide by these laws or we risk losing safe harbor and the Shapeways site.

We really appreciate your discussions surrounding the issue so please keep sharing your opinions and any relevant information you may have.



Duann Scott, Designer Evangelist, Shapeways
Re: Cease and Desist [message #31554 is a reply to message #31536 ] Tue, 26 July 2011 09:06 UTC Go to previous messageGo to next message
avatar minimaker  is currently offline minimaker
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The way I see it is that it's the responsibility of a designer to make sure that there copyright is respected (both his own and others').

What I see here is similar to what I saw with miniatures sculptors. Professionals are usually aware of how copyright works but this is not always the case for starters and hobbyists. And many fall for misunderstandings (google copyright + myths) and mix it up with trademark and patent laws. That's why I think it would be good if a basic explanation on copyrights with examples would exist on this site. An example is what you see on the GW site (a very IP protective company with an active legal department):

http://www.games-workshop.com/gws/content/article.jsp?aId=39 00002 - check section 4.

Interesting is their use of the word intellectual property. This avoids having to set whether it's trademark or copyright they are talking about. Anyway, what you find in the article is a list of examples. A few things from the list:

- they have heavily restricted the use of the name of their game, including the use for clubs and fanzines. Fonts are also protected.
- conversion of miniatures is allowed though the statement "Please do not combine our intellectual properties with IP owned by any third parties." is a bit of a puzzler.
- pictures of their figures: only allowed with reference to the IP.
- educational use: not officially allowed. Only through fair use which again only applies to copyright.
- "reproduction for personal use is NOT an automatic exclusion in respect of copyright protection in many territories worldwide"
- Cardboard reproductions: not allowed.
- Painting services: only if it's generic and not only directed to GW figures.
- Model conversion kits: not allowed by GW.

By the way, that page is by GW, so it's the way they see it. Lawsuits by them have been fought as C&D's have been pulled back. Some before going to court.

Some links to an interesting case on model conversions:
http://www.mi40k.com/?p=1908
http://www.lounge.belloflostsouls.net/showthread.php?t=13751
http://www.lounge.belloflostsouls.net/showthread.php?t=13130

Bye,
Ming-Hua

[Updated on: Tue, 26 July 2011 09:08 UTC]

Re: Cease and Desist [message #31557 is a reply to message #31554 ] Tue, 26 July 2011 11:15 UTC Go to previous messageGo to next message
avatar duann  is currently offline duann
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Hey Ming-Hua

I will look into seeing whether we can show some examples but it is broad and complex across different territories.

Thanks for your suggestion.



Duann Scott, Designer Evangelist, Shapeways
Re: Cease and Desist [message #31558 is a reply to message #31557 ] Tue, 26 July 2011 11:27 UTC Go to previous messageGo to next message
avatar stop4stuff  is currently offline stop4stuff
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Its also worth looking into whether a 3D printed object is classified as artistic works (like a sculpture) which a copy can be made for private use under fair use, or as a design and covered by design rights.

UK Copyright - Fair Use
UK Design Rights
USA Design Patent FAQ

I haven't a clue how the (or even what) European Community Laws apply to EU member states though.

Re: Cease and Desist [message #31560 is a reply to message #31558 ] Tue, 26 July 2011 12:23 UTC Go to previous messageGo to next message
avatar BillBedford  is currently offline BillBedford
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Of course 3D objects are classified as 'works' for the purposes of copyright. there essencial word is copy and it doesn't matter what materials or processes are use to make the copy. A Mickey Mouse made of marzipan would still infringe Disney's copyright.

However ideas cannot be copyrighted So in this case, the idea that an object can be designed by the accretion of cubic shapes is not particularly original -- it is for instance they way rock salt crystals form. There must be millions of permutations of cubes that could be made to produce something that looks vaguely like that used in the film, perhaps someone should produce some drawing of similar structures and ask the lawyers concerned which they consider infringe their copyright. I'm sure a script could easily be written that could produce, say 10000 variations within a reasonable time.

The real problem here, though, is that the OP has admitted that he based his model on a prop from this film. So he really should expect the owners of the film rights to act in any other way than they have.


Bill Bedford
Re: Cease and Desist [message #31566 is a reply to message #31560 ] Tue, 26 July 2011 14:43 UTC Go to previous messageGo to next message
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BillBedford wrote on Tue, 26 July 2011 12:23

Of course 3D objects are classified as 'works' for the purposes of copyright. there essencial word is copy and it doesn't matter what materials or processes are use to make the copy. A Mickey Mouse made of marzipan would still infringe Disney's copyright.


Not necessarily, for example my forum image is a photo one of my designs, purposely designed for the stainless steel materials only. The photo has copyright protection, the design (in the UK) has Unregistered Design Rights protection. i.e. it is the look and material the 3D model is made from that classifies it as a design and I've not taken the steps to register it.

If I made a 2D representaion of Mickey Mouse out of marzipan to decorate my son's birthday cake, I might be breaching USA copyright law, but what about the UK? Would it come under fair use for private study?

How about if I made a 3D representation of Mickey out of marzipan, would that infringe Disney's Design Patent if the item was for personal consumption?

But as Duann said a few posts back
duann wrote on Tue, 26 July 2011 04:32

...We really appreciate your discussions surrounding the issue so please keep sharing your opinions and any relevant information you may have.


Also, if you are in the USA, ideas (i.e. methods) can be patented (even if they're pie-in-the-sky OU nonsense, daft as it seems).

[Updated on: Tue, 26 July 2011 14:44 UTC]

Re: Cease and Desist [message #31567 is a reply to message #28930 ] Tue, 26 July 2011 14:53 UTC Go to previous messageGo to next message
avatar Youknowwho4eva  is currently offline Youknowwho4eva
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I would think the Marvel items would be considered "Fan Art" which used to be seen as flattery, now it's seen as infringement. One option I haven't seen mentioned (I haven't read everything) is to call it a satire piece. That's how you get Family Guy Star Wars episodes and Mike Tyson tattoo's and all that fun stuff.


Your friendly neighborhood Moderman
michael@shapeways.com
Re: Cease and Desist [message #31585 is a reply to message #31566 ] Tue, 26 July 2011 18:57 UTC Go to previous messageGo to next message
avatar minimaker  is currently offline minimaker
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- Not necessarily, .... i.e. it is the look and material the 3D model is made from that classifies it as a design and I've not taken the steps to register it.

You don't need to register it. Though in some cases it makes it easier to prove it's your design. You own the copyright the moment that is has been "fixed in any tangible medium of expression". In this case the photo. The subject on the pictures, if it was designed by you is copyrighted and so is the picture itself which you made of it.

- I might be breaching USA copyright law, but what about the UK? Would it come under fair use for private study?

Both countries have signed the Berne convention treaty. I don't know in detail how that works internationally but I believe it means they have to respect the copyright as it is in the country of origin. Also, if you can convince the judge/jury that what you are doing is for private study it can be fair use (though UK may be using fair dealing, not sure).

- How about if I made a 3D representation of Mickey out of marzipan, would that infringe Disney's Design Patent if the item was for personal consumption?

I think patent would be the only one you would not be infringing upon. Patent is more along the lines of inventions. As you say "ideas". But in theory, you would be breaching the copyright law. Personal use is not an argument for fair use. It would also be a breach of trademark since Disney trademarked Mickey Mouse.

@youuknowwho4eva: you are right. The Marvel items can be seen as fan art but since this is derivative art creating it still falls under the copyright of Marvel. And it's up to them whether they will go after it. Have a look on the GW page I linked before. They go pretty far to keep people from making GW fan art.

- Satire, good question. I had a quick look and found this article. There seems to be some discussion about this and the difference between satire and parody. http://www.techdirt.com/articles/20100625/1311489962.shtml
Can't say much about this without studying this a bit more. Can somebody tell us more?

Bye,
Ming-Hua

[Updated on: Tue, 26 July 2011 18:59 UTC]

Re: Cease and Desist [message #31600 is a reply to message #31585 ] Tue, 26 July 2011 20:44 UTC Go to previous messageGo to next message
avatar stop4stuff  is currently offline stop4stuff
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Yes the UK uses fair dealing, including private use for study. USA has Design Patents for designs in the same respect that the UK has Design Rights. USA Utility Patents are for inventions, in a similar respect to the UK patent for a working prototype of an invention.

All linked to in one of my earlier posts, to save confusion over meanings.

Re: Cease and Desist [message #31636 is a reply to message #31600 ] Wed, 27 July 2011 07:04 UTC Go to previous messageGo to next message
avatar Tigermoth  is currently offline Tigermoth
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Really interesting debate...if not a bit head hammering :/
Makes me wonder whats going to happen to copyright laws when 3d printers and scanners/replicators become household items? This could bring down entire economic structures!

In the meantime, I would really like to print a hard-to-find boot badge for my 69 Datsun. Given the company doesn't exist anymore, and the car hasn't been sold for 40 years...can I do this? Would SW?

BTW I have noticed a fair bit of stuff for sale on here that could be classed as breach of copyright...for instance what laws would surround the making and marketing of products specifically for the iPad/Phone/Pod?

Re: Cease and Desist [message #31639 is a reply to message #31636 ] Wed, 27 July 2011 08:52 UTC Go to previous messageGo to next message
avatar minimaker  is currently offline minimaker
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I don't think that printers becoming household items would change the basic situation for copyrights. It will just increase the number of occurrences and make it less controllable. But it's not different than making a drawing of a known superhero. Unless you do it to sell the items of course.

One thing to consider though is the 3D file. Not everybody can 3D model, so for home printing to become popular there should be libraries online with 3D models (like you see for 3D graphical programs right now). The copyright owner can go after the site that published it and the person who put the file there (similar to what you see in this thread). One difference with the music industry is that these sites will likely be mostly original items (of which the copyright is owned by the uploader). So it will be harder for them to go after a whole site like music and IP companies are doing right now.

As to the Datsun boot badge, I expect it will be Nissan who owns the copyright. Possibly the trademark too if it was maintained. So, strictly speaking you would have to ask them for permission.

By the way, your question makes me think of this case:
http://www.jenkins.eu/mym-spring-2010/german-courts-toy-with -law-in-opel-model-decision.asp
http://jiplp.blogspot.com/2010/03/bundesgerichtshof-decides- in-opelautec.html

Interesting is to see the difference in tone between the two reports. The first one is surprised by the outcome while the second is not. Smile This also shows one of the difficulties of copyrights and trademarks. Outcomes can depend on local culture and specific parties involved.

If it comes to model kits, Lockheed and Boeing lawyers have also gone after model kit producers to get royalties on models of their planes. I've forgotten what the final conclusion was.

As to aftermarket product like for the i-pod, I've been wondering about that as well. I'm not sure where those stand if it comes to copyright. GW forbids it, but I'm not sure of the actual rules about this. Anyone?

@stop4stuff: thanks for the links. I missed that post. Hehe, one thing I like about what's in there:

Accessibility for someone with a visual impairment

It is considered fair dealing to make an accessible copy of a work for someone with an visual impairment if a suitable accessible version is not already available.

Nice Smile

[Updated on: Wed, 27 July 2011 08:54 UTC]

Re: Cease and Desist [message #31640 is a reply to message #31639 ] Wed, 27 July 2011 09:11 UTC Go to previous messageGo to next message
avatar BillBedford  is currently offline BillBedford
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minimaker wrote on Wed, 27 July 2011 08:52

As to aftermarket product like for the i-pod, I've been wondering about that as well. I'm not sure where those stand if it comes to copyright. GW forbids it, but I'm not sure of the actual rules about this. Anyone?


Knowing the alacrity which Apple attacks any perceived threat to their IP, I think there would already have been a flurry of law suits if Apple were at all able to sue people in the after sales market.


Bill Bedford
Re: Cease and Desist [message #31641 is a reply to message #31639 ] Wed, 27 July 2011 09:25 UTC Go to previous messageGo to next message
avatar stop4stuff  is currently offline stop4stuff
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Here's a link to the full UK Copyright, Designs and Patents Act 1988.

Somewhen, quite a while ago, I remembered reading about fair use for the re-creation of car parts... something along the lines of they can be manufactured & sold after so many years out of production... I can't remember how I got to this information and can't find it now... but I did come across an interesting pdf comparing the USA & UK Design Law relating to the design of cars

re i-Pod add-ons - I'd be sure that if the product title doesn't imply that the item is a 'official' product, then it is OK.
e.g. Apple i-Pod cover = wrong, but Cover for Apple i-Pod = OK (which it is see link below)

I expect Apple have a useage policy See Section 2. Guidelines for Using Apple Trademarks and Copyrights

Re: Cease and Desist [message #31644 is a reply to message #31641 ] Wed, 27 July 2011 10:20 UTC Go to previous messageGo to next message
avatar tebee  is currently offline tebee
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The relevant case in British law is http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/British_Leyland_Motor_Corp._v._ Armstrong_Patents_Co.

It was in part in response to this case that the Copyright, Designs and Patents Act 1988 was introduced.

One important provision of the design rights that it introduced was that it excluded parts of the design that were necessary for it's function or to connect to other parts.

Most other countries have some sort of "repair clause" that does something similar and the EU is proposing to harmonise these under the EU Community Design Regulation (CDR).

Problem is if you spend the time to try and understand all this legislation you won't have any time left to design anything ! Add that to the fact that Shapeways is a global market and every country has it's own rules. Do we take down everything that might be illegal somewhere in the world?
Re: Cease and Desist [message #31645 is a reply to message #28930 ] Wed, 27 July 2011 10:57 UTC Go to previous messageGo to next message
avatar tebee  is currently offline tebee
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Interesting snippet in this case - http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-14287864

"That court has now also ruled that the 3D works should not be considered sculptures, which means their copyright protection is 15 years from the date they were marketed"

Not sure if this is all 3D works or just the ones referenced in the case.

Tom

Re: Cease and Desist [message #31646 is a reply to message #31645 ] Wed, 27 July 2011 12:18 UTC Go to previous messageGo to next message
avatar webmaster_duann  is currently offline webmaster_duann
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Oooh, nice find!

Quote:

tebee
Interesting snippet in this case - http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-14287864

"That court has now also ruled that the 3D works should not be considered sculptures, which means their copyright protection is 15 years from the date they were marketed"

Not sure if this is all 3D works or just the ones referenced in the case
.
Re: Cease and Desist [message #31649 is a reply to message #31646 ] Wed, 27 July 2011 13:01 UTC Go to previous messageGo to next message
avatar BillBedford  is currently offline BillBedford
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Maybe is copyright lasted only 15 or 20 years some people would have to come up with more than one idea in a lifetime..............


Bill Bedford
Re: Cease and Desist [message #31660 is a reply to message #28930 ] Wed, 27 July 2011 17:13 UTC Go to previous messageGo to next message
avatar artur83  is currently offline artur83
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This just in.
UK laws are more flexible on movie props.

here

Personally, I tend to side with Lucas on this though.
However, generally, I'm for Sharing (even more than fair-share) and not too many laws in the way of creativity and expression (even if it's expression of being a fan or just expressing replica skills)


Here's an interesting twist: say I'm a replica artist - that is my skill is not 'inventing creativity' but creatively applying my skills to reverse engineer or replicate objects. Should I not be able to express my skills, and sell the right to people to own my objects and appreciate my skills up close? Also, my skills for the said process (3d printing).



http://www.pddnet.com/news-lucas-loses-stormtrooper-helmet-b attle-072711/?et_cid=1864144&et_rid=45582329&linkid= http%3a%2f%2fwww.pddnet.com%2fnews-lucas-loses-stormtrooper- helmet-battle-072711%2f
Re: Cease and Desist [message #31661 is a reply to message #31649 ] Wed, 27 July 2011 17:15 UTC Go to previous messageGo to next message
avatar stop4stuff  is currently offline stop4stuff
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Copyright lasts the lifetime of the owner (rightly so) and some more so that the artist (and heirs) can benefit from the artist's imaginative endeavours... I mean, who would feel right ripping off one of Freddy Mercury's songs before he died, let alone after!

@Teebee that BBC News article, I think, shows the divide between understanding of copyright, design rights and patent. To me it looks like Mr. Ainsworth knew exactly what he was doing... UK act passed in 1988, giving him a 15 year wait 'til he could produce the replicas, which (as I understand) he started doing in 2003, and now he has rightfullly (under UK law) succeeded in his claims of the suit as a design (15 year original owner rights)... on top of comply with UK law to-the-letter, it also looks like he managed to find a loop-hole in US law by having no interests in the USA (which lead the case to be heard in the UK)... http://www.shapeways.com/forum/images/message_icons/icon14.gif that geezer!

I suppose Lucas will file the design under US design patents now and sue him retropectively in a year or so Sad

Re: Cease and Desist [message #31664 is a reply to message #31660 ] Wed, 27 July 2011 18:28 UTC Go to previous messageGo to next message
avatar stop4stuff  is currently offline stop4stuff
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Yep, the Lucas thing was mentioned a few posts back. Wink

Your twist can be done... if you are employed a an educator and reproducing stuff for educational purposes for students to learn from... but not as a creator of fakes-for-sale, although you might get away with using the fakes for private study (think market research for your upcoming business as a modeller)... for UK law, check out the links previously in this thread.

Re: Cease and Desist [message #31676 is a reply to message #31645 ] Wed, 27 July 2011 23:13 UTC Go to previous messageGo to previous message
avatar minimaker  is currently offline minimaker
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"Not sure if this is all 3D works or just the ones referenced in the case."

From the way it's written in the article I would say only these specific 3 dimensional objects. Not 3D works in general (whether digital or touchable). Problem would otherwise be the question what a 3D works is and a clear distinction between when it's sculpture or not.

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