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3d materials and modelling glue! [message #25866] Sun, 10 April 2011 10:20 UTC Go to next message
avatar cobusp  is currently offline cobusp
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Hi all.

I am new to 3d printing.

Does anyone know if the fine plastic material can be used with hobby scale modelling cement? I plan to create unassembled scale models for a niche market.
Re: 3d materials and modelling glue! [message #25872 is a reply to message #25866 ] Sun, 10 April 2011 19:33 UTC Go to previous messageGo to next message
avatar GWMT  is currently offline GWMT
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Hi cobusp;

You'll need to use ACC (crazy glue) to glue White, Stong & Flexible and Detail materials together. I use the 'thick' kind of ACC; its consistency is like Testors' tube cement (doesn't flow like water all over your model) and it takes a few seconds to set up so you have time to adjust things.
Re: 3d materials and modelling glue! [message #25873 is a reply to message #25872 ] Sun, 10 April 2011 21:11 UTC Go to previous messageGo to next message
avatar stannum  is currently offline stannum
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For the record, in other places ACC is known as cyanoacrylate, CA, with brands like super glue or filla-glu. Also PVA glue (the white one used for wood) can be used if the surface is big (this one works as sealant too).
Re: 3d materials and modelling glue! [message #25894 is a reply to message #25873 ] Mon, 11 April 2011 06:25 UTC Go to previous messageGo to next message
avatar cobusp  is currently offline cobusp
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Thank you for the feedback -- much appreciated!
Re: 3d materials and modelling glue! [message #25915 is a reply to message #25894 ] Mon, 11 April 2011 10:20 UTC Go to previous messageGo to next message
avatar CGD  is currently offline CGD
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I found that quick set (5 min.) two parts epoxy glue is strongest to bond WSF material. But you have to hold the parts in place and held your breath for 5 minutes. Laughing

I usually apply just a little bit on area of the parts to be glued, wait two minutes until the glue gets tacky, and then joint the pieces together.

Another trick to use super glue is to apply very very thin layer of epoxy glue to the surface to be join. After it has set, then use super glue to join the parts together, i.e. join the epoxy layer together.

CGD
Re: 3d materials and modelling glue! [message #25932 is a reply to message #25915 ] Mon, 11 April 2011 16:56 UTC Go to previous messageGo to next message
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"I found that quick set (5 min.) two parts epoxy glue is strongest to bond WSF material. But you have to hold the parts in place and held your breath for 5 minutes."

Try putting a fan set on low speed about 8 feet to one side from you blowing across the work surface. There should be just enough air flow to keep the fumes away from your face but not disturb anything on your work surface.
Re: 3d materials and modelling glue! [message #25937 is a reply to message #25915 ] Mon, 11 April 2011 18:44 UTC Go to previous messageGo to next message
avatar cobusp  is currently offline cobusp
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Thank you very much CGD for the usefulfeedback. What concerns me though, is if customers will be satisfied with the inconvenient way of glueing pieces together.

I notics that you have created quite a few piecs for hobbyists. Aren't customers annoyed if they are not able to use the standard, "once-off" modellign cement?
Re: 3d materials and modelling glue! [message #25939 is a reply to message #25937 ] Mon, 11 April 2011 19:14 UTC Go to previous messageGo to next message
avatar stannum  is currently offline stannum
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That depends, some people use CA glue for everything, because as soon as the kit has metal parts, you can't use plastic one anyway. Also some like to be able to separate parts if not happy with the result, while plastic cement melts and will require cutting.

Customer's biggest problem will probably be surface texture.
Re: 3d materials and modelling glue! [message #25940 is a reply to message #25866 ] Mon, 11 April 2011 20:57 UTC Go to previous messageGo to next message
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I know this one is definitely on our shelves, and it's described as " single-componet cyanoacrylate monomer". You think it will do the job? index.php?t=getfile&id=8194&private=0

Re: 3d materials and modelling glue! [message #25948 is a reply to message #25937 ] Tue, 12 April 2011 01:50 UTC Go to previous messageGo to next message
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cobusp wrote on Mon, 11 April 2011 18:44

Thank you very much CGD for the usefulfeedback. What concerns me though, is if customers will be satisfied with the inconvenient way of glueing pieces together.

I notics that you have created quite a few piecs for hobbyists. Aren't customers annoyed if they are not able to use the standard, "once-off" modellign cement?


cobusp:

The models I designed are usually "one piece" without the need for assembling, except for moving pivots. This is possible because 3D printing allows undercuts and hollow chambers, not like regular molding. It would be more challenging for the customer to paint but can avoid the need for gluing.

There are parts that required gluing afterward because of printing difficulties. Those I try to design built-in fixtures for easy gluing.

The Super Glue you posted is the CA glue we are talking about. But if possible, you should use the thicker type as GWMT said, or the gel type. Otherwise the WSF will soak up the glue before it can set.

And stannum:


You are right that texture is the main concern. I now used multi layers of paint to minimize the texture as shown here:
http://www.combatgroupdynamix.com/index3.html
Re: 3d materials and modelling glue! [message #25984 is a reply to message #25866 ] Tue, 12 April 2011 20:19 UTC Go to previous messageGo to next message
avatar cobusp  is currently offline cobusp
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Thanks CGD for the very useful info. Nice guide you provided as well!

Looks like I'm in business then. Now to complete my model!
Re: 3d materials and modelling glue! [message #25990 is a reply to message #25984 ] Tue, 12 April 2011 21:43 UTC Go to previous messageGo to next message
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Yes, that's a great guide CGD. Did you paint that model with a brush?
Re: 3d materials and modelling glue! [message #25999 is a reply to message #25990 ] Wed, 13 April 2011 01:49 UTC Go to previous messageGo to next message
avatar CGD  is currently offline CGD
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Thank you! You are all welcome!

Yes, I painted the models with a brush.

CGD
Re: 3d materials and modelling glue! [message #26002 is a reply to message #25999 ] Wed, 13 April 2011 05:08 UTC Go to previous messageGo to next message
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Please forgive me, cobusp, for temporarily turning this thread in a different direction. I'd like to show you and CGD the results from trying his painting technique.

I brush painted the part with one coat of Badger CP Action Red acrylic paint then brush painted a coat of clear closs acrylic over that. Next I lightly sanded a part of the surface with a fibreglass pen (http://www.micromark.com/2-piece-Mini-Brush-Set,6564.html) per Richard at Ben Racey Modelling ( http://www.shapeways.com/forum/index.php?t=msg&th=4901&a mp;start=0&) - what a difference in surface texture!
index.php?t=getfile&id=8262&private=0

I'm going to super glue some styrene detail parts to the brackets in the photo and spray paint one last coat of red paint.

Re: 3d materials and modelling glue! [message #26003 is a reply to message #26002 ] Wed, 13 April 2011 05:15 UTC Go to previous messageGo to next message
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GWMT wrote on Wed, 13 April 2011 05:08



I brush painted the part with one coat of Badger CP Action Red acrylic paint then brush painted a coat of clear closs acrylic over that. Next I lightly sanded a part of the surface with a fibreglass pen (http://www.micromark.com/2-piece-Mini-Brush-Set,6564.html) per Richard at Ben Racey Modelling ( http://www.shapeways.com/forum/index.php?t=msg&th=4901&a mp;a mp;start=0&) - what a difference in surface texture!

I'm going to super glue some styrene detail parts to the brackets in the photo and spray paint one last coat of red paint.



Very interesting. Haven't heard of the fibreglass pen before. Waiting to see how the final result looks.

CGD
Re: 3d materials and modelling glue! [message #26024 is a reply to message #25866 ] Wed, 13 April 2011 20:35 UTC Go to previous messageGo to next message
avatar cobusp  is currently offline cobusp
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Thanks GMWT for the interesting info!

I am curious, why do you modellers pick white, strong & flexible insead of white detail (which is apparently smoother in terms of surface texture)?

Something else: I uploaded a test model (still with very little detail) which is like the typical un-assembled model kit. It is very flat and non-solid, and with the frame included, its dimensions are roughly 29x42x1,5 cm. But again, lots of space in between.

I was quite surprised at the quoted price: $170.67 (whew!). I modeled it in Carrara and exported it in the Collada format. Is there any chance the dimensions could change between programs/formats, resulting in uploads bigger than the originals?
Re: 3d materials and modelling glue! [message #26025 is a reply to message #25866 ] Wed, 13 April 2011 20:36 UTC Go to previous messageGo to next message
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Sorry yuo can check mybopload here: http://www.shapeways.com/model/240527/
Re: 3d materials and modelling glue! [message #26032 is a reply to message #26024 ] Thu, 14 April 2011 01:38 UTC Go to previous messageGo to next message
avatar CGD  is currently offline CGD
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cobusp wrote on Wed, 13 April 2011 20:35

Thanks GMWT for the interesting info!

I am curious, why do you modellers pick white, strong & flexible insead of white detail (which is apparently smoother in terms of surface texture)?




Hi,

Check out my thread here and you'll see why I dropped White Detail:
http://www.shapeways.com/forum/index.php?t=tree&th=1800& amp;S=5e904b4c9443bf8ea4d6317a081aa127

And WSF can be as thin as 0.75mm too.

BTW, you need to make your uploaded model either public or hidden before we can see it.

CGD
Re: 3d materials and modelling glue! [message #26033 is a reply to message #26025 ] Thu, 14 April 2011 01:51 UTC Go to previous messageGo to next message
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"...why do you modellers pick white, strong & flexible insead of white detail (which is apparently smoother in terms of surface texture)?"

My reasons are price, minimum thickness and flexibility. Detail is nearly twice the price of WSF and has a minimum thickness of 1mm (versus 0.7mm for WSF).

Detail models without any processing look much better than WSF (http://www.proto87.org/d/?q=node/42) but they're brittle. CGD's linked page has an image of a thin WSF tank barrel being bent about 45 degrees off true without breaking.

cobusp; I'm not allowed to see your uploaded model; have you got the Model availability 'available to all' box checked and Model view shape set to 'Show only'?
index.php?t=getfile&id=8274&private=0

Re: 3d materials and modelling glue! [message #26038 is a reply to message #26033 ] Thu, 14 April 2011 06:06 UTC Go to previous messageGo to next message
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Thanks for the comments. I think my model will be available now, if you'd like to have a look at it. Keep in mind that it is intended as a test, so there is minimum detail. Thanks

http://www.shapeways.com/model/240527/stealth_fighter_model. html?mode=3d
Re: 3d materials and modelling glue! [message #26048 is a reply to message #26038 ] Thu, 14 April 2011 14:27 UTC Go to previous messageGo to next message
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cobusp wrote on Thu, 14 April 2011 06:06

Thanks for the comments. I think my model will be available now, if you'd like to have a look at it. Keep in mind that it is intended as a test, so there is minimum detail. Thanks

http://www.shapeways.com/model/240527/stealth_fighter_model. html?mode=3d


Hi cobusp,

Java keeps frozen up when I tried to open your model page so I still cannot see your model. But when I look at the size, the model is really huge. Adding to that the cost of White Detail, I won't surprise it is so expensive.
Confused

CGD
Re: 3d materials and modelling glue! [message #26056 is a reply to message #25866 ] Thu, 14 April 2011 18:31 UTC Go to previous messageGo to next message
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Here is a Java screen shot. It may seem huge, yes, but as you can see, there's lots of empty space in it, and most of the model parts are not solid.

My understanding was that the cost is determined by the amount of material used, or is it calculated by the overall size of the upload?

Thanks again, I really appreciate your feedback!

  • Attachment: model.jpg
    (Size: 39.20KB, Downloaded 77 time(s))

Re: 3d materials and modelling glue! [message #26059 is a reply to message #26056 ] Thu, 14 April 2011 18:50 UTC Go to previous messageGo to next message
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I was having Java problems too - I uninstalled Java then reinstalled it to fix it.

That's right - you pay only for the material used. You can cut the cost by eliminating as much sprue as possible. If I was building it in WSF I'd try doing it like this:
index.php?t=getfile&id=8283&private=0

Re: 3d materials and modelling glue! [message #26061 is a reply to message #26033 ] Thu, 14 April 2011 19:09 UTC Go to previous messageGo to next message
avatar cobusp  is currently offline cobusp
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If you guys say White detail is brittle -- how much exactly do you mean? Does it mean that it may crack if I were to cut a pice with a scalpel knife?
Re: 3d materials and modelling glue! [message #26062 is a reply to message #26059 ] Thu, 14 April 2011 19:16 UTC Go to previous messageGo to next message
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Wow, GWMT, what a quick reposne with image and all!! Thanks, I can see the logic in what you did.

I was just trying to make it look the conventional, unassebled scale model kit to penetrate that market with specialised models. But alas, I see it may still be some time before that will happen.

While we stay with the Shapeways market, do you know if there are users actually making money with their prints?
Re: 3d materials and modelling glue! [message #26074 is a reply to message #26059 ] Fri, 15 April 2011 01:39 UTC Go to previous messageGo to next message
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GWMT wrote on Thu, 14 April 2011 18:50

I was having Java problems too - I uninstalled Java then reinstalled it to fix it.

That's right - you pay only for the material used. You can cut the cost by eliminating as much sprue as possible. If I was building it in WSF I'd try doing it like this:
index.php?t=getfile&id=8283&private=0



Thanks GWMT for the capture.

cobusp:

Looking at the picture, if the vertical spruces is 1mm thick, then the body must be 4 - 5 mm thick. If you make that hollow, I think you can save at least half the cost.

CGD
Re: 3d materials and modelling glue! [message #26116 is a reply to message #25866 ] Fri, 15 April 2011 20:13 UTC Go to previous messageGo to next message
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Thank you for the good advice.

This has been a very fruitful discussion and I thank everybody for their input.

Lastly, concerning "white detail": what do references to it as "brittle" mean exactly? WIll it crack when I, say, cut a piece with a scalpel knife?
Re: 3d materials and modelling glue! [message #26123 is a reply to message #26116 ] Sat, 16 April 2011 02:01 UTC Go to previous messageGo to next message
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cobusp wrote on Fri, 15 April 2011 20:13

Thank you for the good advice.

This has been a very fruitful discussion and I thank everybody for their input.

Lastly, concerning "white detail": what do references to it as "brittle" mean exactly? WIll it crack when I, say, cut a piece with a scalpel knife?


My experience with WD (very little in fact, so correct me if I'm wrong), is soft to the touch, not as flexible as WSF but flexible if it is thin, and warp like hell. If you got a thick piece and you bend it, it'll break into two. It is acrylic after all.

My advice is either order a sample pack from Shapeways or print a small piece for test.
Re: 3d materials and modelling glue! [message #26137 is a reply to message #25866 ] Sat, 16 April 2011 11:22 UTC Go to previous message
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Thank you, I'll try that.

 
   
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