Home » Community » It arrived! » the WOW continues ...
Search Search  
Show: Today's Messages    Show Polls    Message Navigator
the WOW continues ... [message #25810] Fri, 08 April 2011 12:23 UTC Go to next message
avatar kontor_apart  is currently offline kontor_apart
Messages: 159
Registered: February 2010
Go to my shop
Senior Member
The model below is 5.5" - 14 cm high and only 1.5 mm thick throughout. It is hollowed to 1.5 mm whereever possible.

It was for sure rejected here and successfully printed by another service. The model is nice and heavy, white is white and the price was very reasonable (read: considerably cheaper).

This is what you get from that unnamed materialising company:

In the package - model embedded in its support structure:
index.php?t=getfile&id=8061&private=0
index.php?t=getfile&id=8062&private=0

The model itself:
index.php?t=getfile&id=8063&private=0

dizingof wrote on Mon, 21 March 2011 09:20

This thread is not intended to prompt any other 3D printing service but to raise some questions and create a community discussion about shapeways current post-processing of full color sandstone - a process that while it is thought to make a model survive shipment.. in fact distorts the white into off-white and makes other colors darken.
It's definitely time for Shapeways to get their act together - re. wall thickness, finishing AND pricing


Re: the WOW continues ... [message #25814 is a reply to message #25810 ] Fri, 08 April 2011 12:45 UTC Go to previous messageGo to next message
avatar nancyliang  is currently offline nancyliang
Messages: 155
Registered: January 2011
Go to my shop
Senior Member
I work here
Thanks, will look into this as well. I wish there was much more of an update I can give--there are some things I can and can't share publicly just yet. Please keep me informed as you get more prints successfully printed that was rejected at Shapeways.

[Updated on: Fri, 08 April 2011 14:30 UTC]



Product Manager
Twitter: @nliang
Re: the WOW continues ... [message #25815 is a reply to message #25810 ] Fri, 08 April 2011 12:45 UTC Go to previous messageGo to next message
avatar dizingof  is currently offline dizingof
Messages: 1288
Registered: October 2009
Go to my shop
Senior Member
Quote:


It's definitely time for Shapeways to get their act together - re. wall thickness, finishing AND pricing




Definitely wow

1.5mm thick walls.. smooth surface.. accurate colors placement and not distorted/smudged..

(It would seem the support material you received with the model i.e: plain white sandstone may cost 3 times as much as the model itself yet its not counted into the price..)




http://www.3Dizingof.com
Re: the WOW continues ... [message #25819 is a reply to message #25815 ] Fri, 08 April 2011 14:43 UTC Go to previous messageGo to next message
avatar nancyliang  is currently offline nancyliang
Messages: 155
Registered: January 2011
Go to my shop
Senior Member
I work here
Yes, I understand your pain. We are researching alternative methods that will give bright colors and strength. Please let me know when you get any more prints >> nancy (at) shapeways (dot) com.

Thanks



Product Manager
Twitter: @nliang
Re: the WOW continues ... [message #25822 is a reply to message #25810 ] Fri, 08 April 2011 15:26 UTC Go to previous messageGo to next message
avatar aeron203  is currently offline aeron203
Messages: 449
Registered: July 2008
Go to my shop
Senior Member
That is a beautiful print, done about as well as it can be done with current technology.

The model you show was processed mostly by hand. Because it reached a certain price point, it becomes efficient to do that. The material becomes a smaller fraction of the cost, and such a delicate model has to use support anyway. Applying the volume-based price scheme makes no sense in this context, especially with such a light model.

It sounds like what you're really looking for are hand finished models. Shapeways specializes in volume efficiency and other companies already provide the other type of service.


Aaron - 40westdesigns.com/blog
Re: the WOW continues ... [message #25828 is a reply to message #25822 ] Fri, 08 April 2011 18:25 UTC Go to previous messageGo to next message
avatar kontor_apart  is currently offline kontor_apart
Messages: 159
Registered: February 2010
Go to my shop
Senior Member
aeron203 wrote on Fri, 08 April 2011 15:26

The model you show was processed mostly by hand. Because it reached a certain price point, it becomes efficient to do that ...

Shapeways specializes in volume efficiency and other companies already provide the other type of service.
Nice theory, but the price tag for this thing speaks a very different language. Verify for yourself, if you like.
In fact, if price and result are OK, I could care less HOW it is done.

To me, the massive support structure mainly prompts some questions about a linear volume-based price scheme.

Re: the WOW continues ... [message #25832 is a reply to message #25810 ] Fri, 08 April 2011 20:24 UTC Go to previous messageGo to next message
avatar aeron203  is currently offline aeron203
Messages: 449
Registered: July 2008
Go to my shop
Senior Member
I think we agree that volume-based pricing doesn't always make sense. It's just very convenient for calculation. This works in our favor for small items so of course its going to work less well in some cases.

It does look like there is a lot of demand for figurines, which has shown to be the closest thing to a "killer app" for 3d printing. I think we could expect a volume discount as with WSF, but I suspect they will hold firm on the wall-thickness requirement. This material is extremely delicate and figurines tend to have stuff sticking off of them that will break in automated depowdering. Switching away from automation would definitely kick up the price. Maybe Shapeways might consider a premium service for figurines.


Aaron - 40westdesigns.com/blog
Re: the WOW continues ... [message #25841 is a reply to message #25810 ] Sat, 09 April 2011 11:17 UTC Go to previous messageGo to next message
avatar kontor_apart  is currently offline kontor_apart
Messages: 159
Registered: February 2010
Go to my shop
Senior Member
BTW, no need to send PMs.

Read between the lines to find out about the unnamed materialising company.

Re: the WOW continues ... [message #25842 is a reply to message #25841 ] Sat, 09 April 2011 11:45 UTC Go to previous messageGo to next message
avatar dizingof  is currently offline dizingof
Messages: 1288
Registered: October 2009
Go to my shop
Senior Member
trompevenlo wrote on Sat, 09 April 2011 11:17

BTW, no need to send PMs.

Read between the lines to find out about the unnamed materialising company.




@trompevenlo
what was the cost of shipping ? now that they have a $99/euro limit for free shipping

I hate paying local UPS 120% (!) extra just for "opening a file" on my package.



http://www.3Dizingof.com
Re: the WOW continues ... [message #25846 is a reply to message #25842 ] Sat, 09 April 2011 14:41 UTC Go to previous messageGo to next message
avatar noesis  is currently offline noesis
Messages: 78
Registered: October 2010
Go to my shop
Member
Um, I know I'm missing the point of the thread, or maybe everyone else is, but why did you 3D print this anyhow? It's completely awesome, don't get me wrong, but why not just make it? You know, glue, rusty springs and bolts. Seems like that would be much cheaper lol
Re: the WOW continues ... [message #25848 is a reply to message #25846 ] Sat, 09 April 2011 15:15 UTC Go to previous messageGo to next message
avatar 7777773  is currently offline 7777773
Messages: 59
Registered: January 2011
Go to my shop
Member
I think the point is that this piece is decidedly not what it appears to be... which is often the point in a work of art.

It's an interesting use of cutting edge technology to create something that looks like it was made in an old-tech medium. I like it!

[Updated on: Sat, 09 April 2011 15:16 UTC]

Re: the WOW continues ... [message #25850 is a reply to message #25810 ] Sat, 09 April 2011 15:26 UTC Go to previous messageGo to next message
avatar noesis  is currently offline noesis
Messages: 78
Registered: October 2010
Go to my shop
Member
Doh! Good point! I didn't think of it that way! Ironic because I'm currently modeling something that plays off that same principle! Lol sometimes art needs explaining, can anyone say Jackson Pollock.

[Updated on: Sat, 09 April 2011 15:26 UTC]

Re: the WOW continues ... [message #25855 is a reply to message #25846 ] Sat, 09 April 2011 17:42 UTC Go to previous messageGo to next message
avatar kontor_apart  is currently offline kontor_apart
Messages: 159
Registered: February 2010
Go to my shop
Senior Member
noesis wrote on Sat, 09 April 2011 14:41

Um, I know I'm missing the point of the thread, or maybe everyone else is, but why did you 3D print this anyhow? It's completely awesome, don't get me wrong, but why not just make it? You know, glue, rusty springs and bolts. Seems like that would be much cheaper lol


Congratulations, you are the

  1. first
  2. second
  3. third
to ask that question and you all are absolutely right. Why would anybody be crazy enough to make stupid things like model trains, miniature houses, figurines and all that.

Just some wood, bricks and mortar, and voilà, there is your house. It's sooo easy and a lot of fun ...

But on the serious side, the real point of this thread is actually something completely different ...



Re: the WOW continues ... [message #25856 is a reply to message #25855 ] Sat, 09 April 2011 18:04 UTC Go to previous messageGo to next message
avatar noesis  is currently offline noesis
Messages: 78
Registered: October 2010
Go to my shop
Member
Lol, I thought I was being so original though! Smile I'm guessing you'll be asked this same question many times over Wink I do think your stuff is really cool, are they originals or are you basing your designs off of already existing metal figures made the "traditional" way?
Re: the WOW continues ... [message #25857 is a reply to message #25856 ] Sat, 09 April 2011 18:06 UTC Go to previous messageGo to next message
avatar noesis  is currently offline noesis
Messages: 78
Registered: October 2010
Go to my shop
Member
Oh and yes, I see the underlying actual topic Wink Appreciate the sharing, competition for Shapeways can only mean improvement for us end users.
Re: the WOW continues ... [message #27073 is a reply to message #25810 ] Sat, 07 May 2011 09:21 UTC Go to previous messageGo to next message
avatar kontor_apart  is currently offline kontor_apart
Messages: 159
Registered: February 2010
Go to my shop
Senior Member
nancyliang wrote on Fri, 08 April 2011 12:45

Please keep me informed as you get more prints successfully printed that was rejected at Shapeways.


Since you asked for it: These were printed by .........

11cm (4.5") high, perfectly colored and sturdy at 1.5 mm wall thickness.
index.php?t=getfile&id=8706&private=0
The same:
index.php?t=getfile&id=8707&private=0

This is what we found in the package from Leuven:
index.php?t=getfile&id=8708&private=0

and these are the wall thicknesses which made them so affordable.
index.php?t=getfile&id=8709&private=0
Re: the WOW continues ... [message #27074 is a reply to message #25810 ] Sat, 07 May 2011 09:28 UTC Go to previous messageGo to next message
avatar kontor_apart  is currently offline kontor_apart
Messages: 159
Registered: February 2010
Go to my shop
Senior Member
and another one, 23x31 cm, 1.5 mm thick with a 1mm honeycomb reinforcement on the back.

the smaller one in the lower right corner is a Shapeways print, 3mm thick.

the quality difference is evident.
index.php?t=getfile&id=8711&private=0

  • Attachment: DSC00193 2.JPG
    (Size: 229.63KB, Downloaded 1856 time(s))

Re: the WOW continues ... [message #27081 is a reply to message #25810 ] Sat, 07 May 2011 14:24 UTC Go to previous messageGo to next message
avatar dizingof  is currently offline dizingof
Messages: 1288
Registered: October 2009
Go to my shop
Senior Member
beautiful prints.

is the lower-right really from shapeways.. you got white !?







http://www.3Dizingof.com
Re: the WOW continues ... [message #27113 is a reply to message #27081 ] Sun, 08 May 2011 15:29 UTC Go to previous messageGo to next message
avatar kontor_apart  is currently offline kontor_apart
Messages: 159
Registered: February 2010
Go to my shop
Senior Member
dizingof wrote on Sat, 07 May 2011 14:24

is the lower-right really from shapeways.. you got white !?
Like always, the Shapeways "white" is actually a light brownish yellow. It looks +-acceptable until you get something which has a real white.
Re: the WOW continues ... [message #27115 is a reply to message #25810 ] Sun, 08 May 2011 15:58 UTC Go to previous messageGo to next message
avatar dizingof  is currently offline dizingof
Messages: 1288
Registered: October 2009
Go to my shop
Senior Member
yeah i know the "feeling"..

when it's not a real white all other colors suffer. Confused



Btw, did you also notice that the surface feel is different then a regular shapeways sandstone?
could "they" be using a different material for color printing?

At first glance my tiger looks like a porcelain.. no grainy feel
I have no idea how they can smooth such (delicate ?) prints like yours all over - it has to be some kind of a chemical post processing that reaches every curve and every spot.
(just a guess - shapeways had this post processing back in 2009 and was stopped)









http://www.3Dizingof.com
Re: the WOW continues ... [message #27120 is a reply to message #27115 ] Sun, 08 May 2011 20:46 UTC Go to previous messageGo to next message
avatar Kaetemi  is currently offline Kaetemi
Messages: 190
Registered: October 2009
Go to my shop
Senior Member
http://dl.kaetemi.be/shapeways/fcscompare.png
Only very minor improvement in whiteness level since a few months ago. It's just a slight bit grayer than yellow. But seems like it's a misprint slipped past QA, since everything in this order has the large white-ish spots on the prints that are the same as on an earlier print that failed due to a problem during the infusion process. Also notice the "leaking" colors...

[Updated on: Sun, 08 May 2011 21:53 UTC]


Kaetemi
Re: the WOW continues ... [message #27139 is a reply to message #27115 ] Mon, 09 May 2011 07:29 UTC Go to previous messageGo to next message
avatar kontor_apart  is currently offline kontor_apart
Messages: 159
Registered: February 2010
Go to my shop
Senior Member
dizingof wrote on Sun, 08 May 2011 15:58

could "they" be using a different material for color printing?

At first glance my tiger looks like a porcelain.. no grainy feel ...
I believe the material is more or less the same, but post-processing differs.

As far as I know, they dip the models into superglue of some sort (stuff like this) after printing.

Re: the WOW continues ... [message #27170 is a reply to message #27139 ] Mon, 09 May 2011 15:39 UTC Go to previous messageGo to next message
avatar Kaetemi  is currently offline Kaetemi
Messages: 190
Registered: October 2009
Go to my shop
Senior Member
For your reference:

http://dl.kaetemi.be/shapeways/fcsranges.png

Notice the horrible looking cyan and magenta gradients... They seem to be using some funky rgb/cmyk conversion there.


Kaetemi
Re: the WOW continues ... [message #27171 is a reply to message #25810 ] Mon, 09 May 2011 15:46 UTC Go to previous messageGo to next message
avatar dizingof  is currently offline dizingof
Messages: 1288
Registered: October 2009
Go to my shop
Senior Member
"Horrible" is understatement ...

I cant understand why Shapeways keeps outsourcing to this production partner.

It simply kills this material both for designers and customers.


http://www.3Dizingof.com
Re: the WOW continues ... [message #27177 is a reply to message #27171 ] Mon, 09 May 2011 16:34 UTC Go to previous messageGo to next message
avatar Kaetemi  is currently offline Kaetemi
Messages: 190
Registered: October 2009
Go to my shop
Senior Member
Well, I assume the color range is related to the range that the zcorp color ink can reach. I just hope they don't randomly start messing around with it without noticing us beforehand, would waste time and money spent tweaking colors.


Kaetemi
Re: the WOW continues ... [message #28269 is a reply to message #27177 ] Fri, 27 May 2011 16:02 UTC Go to previous messageGo to next message
avatar Kaetemi  is currently offline Kaetemi
Messages: 190
Registered: October 2009
Go to my shop
Senior Member
For reference, I've ordered these color palettes at i.materialise as well. Whiteness is 'ok', as in 'not yellowish'. But, the color gradients are almost the same there, and actually for some reason worse than shapeways. On the i.materialise parts there seems to be some odd oversaturated brightening occuring from 50% to 25% luminosity (it remains overly bright in color in that range), with a very short gradient to black from there on. The black is less smudgy though. The surface for some reason got some very inconsistent glossy/matte treatment, which is not very nice. Scans on monday.


Kaetemi
Re: the WOW continues ... [message #28276 is a reply to message #28269 ] Fri, 27 May 2011 17:58 UTC Go to previous messageGo to next message
avatar ana  is currently offline ana
Messages: 765
Registered: October 2008
Go to my shop
Senior Member
I work here
@kaetemi Thanks for the update. I know Nancy has continued delving into these issues. Looking forward to seeing the images!


Community Manager | Shapeways

Re: the WOW continues ... [message #28402 is a reply to message #28276 ] Tue, 31 May 2011 07:45 UTC Go to previous messageGo to next message
avatar Kaetemi  is currently offline Kaetemi
Messages: 190
Registered: October 2009
Go to my shop
Senior Member
The same palettes from i.materialise scanned on the same settings.

http://dl.kaetemi.be/materialise/multicolor_imaterialise.png

Their whiteness is ok, but their black is far from black (and inconsistently so, too). Some amount of apparent brightness may be caused by their inconsistently glossy surface processing.

The rgb-cmyk conversion is probably just the same as shapeways uses, but the differences in processing cause very different color results.


Kaetemi
Re: the WOW continues ... [message #28413 is a reply to message #28402 ] Tue, 31 May 2011 10:40 UTC Go to previous messageGo to next message
avatar bitstoatoms  is currently offline bitstoatoms
Messages: 407
Registered: March 2009
Go to my shop
Senior Member
I work here
Stay tuned.

We have good news on the horizon, maybe even closer Smile


Duann Scott

Re: the WOW continues ... [message #28432 is a reply to message #28413 ] Tue, 31 May 2011 17:56 UTC Go to previous messageGo to next message
avatar Kaetemi  is currently offline Kaetemi
Messages: 190
Registered: October 2009
Go to my shop
Senior Member
I don't like i.materialise's inconsistent gloss layer surface finish very much.
Picture with both Shapeways' and i.materialise's palettes together: http://dl.kaetemi.be/materialise/DSC01727.JPG
Can't do any own polishing on it either, it's completely fixed, not so nice for me.


Kaetemi
Re: the WOW continues ... [message #28826 is a reply to message #28432 ] Thu, 09 June 2011 16:25 UTC Go to previous messageGo to next message
avatar macouno  is currently offline macouno
Messages: 113
Registered: April 2008
Go to my shop
Senior Member
Hi... Mostly I'm posting because this is rather a hot issue for me as well (I want the notification). The 3mm limit is just really.... way big... and a different finish would be awesome.

I hope you guys have some good news soon. If you need testers let me know!
Re: the WOW continues ... [message #32038 is a reply to message #28826 ] Thu, 04 August 2011 01:48 UTC Go to previous messageGo to next message
avatar stefan_z  is currently offline stefan_z
Messages: 40
Registered: July 2011
Go to my shop
Member
Bump - yeah Color in thinner walls would be awesome.
The color-mario I just got feels awesome - even at the thin 1,5mm nose.

Maybe charge like some extra for delicate handling or such.

But I don't see why for example a 1,5mm flat color print with some bumps would fail to work....

I guess it's the way they calculate around here...

Color Issues are another story - the RGB/4c conversion sure blows. Looks like some 1992 HP Inkjet to me!

Maybe Zcorp might have to rewrite their driver...
Re: the WOW continues ... [message #32041 is a reply to message #32038 ] Thu, 04 August 2011 06:34 UTC Go to previous messageGo to next message
avatar stannum  is currently offline stannum
Messages: 900
Registered: May 2009
Go to my shop
Senior Member
They use HP 10/11 printheads, only CMYK (& binder), and with really bad "paper" and a weird coating to finish. So normal that it prints like a 90s model. ^_^
Re: the WOW continues ... [message #32071 is a reply to message #32041 ] Thu, 04 August 2011 17:59 UTC Go to previous messageGo to next message
avatar stefan_z  is currently offline stefan_z
Messages: 40
Registered: July 2011
Go to my shop
Member
Well that's no excuse I think.

The financial scale Zcorp operates at would sure allow them to get some custom inks made and a decent driver as well.

I'm not asking for proof-perfect 4c printing here - but some sort of less-tinted magenta and cyan should be achievable.
Re: the WOW continues ... [message #32073 is a reply to message #32071 ] Thu, 04 August 2011 18:04 UTC Go to previous messageGo to next message
avatar nancyliang  is currently offline nancyliang
Messages: 155
Registered: January 2011
Go to my shop
Senior Member
I work here
Hey guys, we do have a solution in mind and have already begun testing it with a few community members. Currently, the priority is on getting lead times for our other materials back under control (ceramics, frosties, and polished WSF). I am targeting to launch the new solution sometime in September. I'm looking into both color improvements AND structural strength. I think this new process can solve both, based on the tests I've seen. Hang in there!



Product Manager
Twitter: @nliang
Re: the WOW continues ... [message #32088 is a reply to message #32073 ] Thu, 04 August 2011 22:49 UTC Go to previous messageGo to next message
avatar stannum  is currently offline stannum
Messages: 900
Registered: May 2009
Go to my shop
Senior Member
@stefan_z: the "paper" is poor in print terms, and not just ZCorp involved, Xlaform coating also affects the result. Load some very bad paper in a photo printer, and later coat it with wood varnish you forgot to stir... ^_^

@nancyliang: Great tip, queueing yet another print of the color reference/tester for then, instead of wasting money now with a soon to be obsolete method.

Will design rules change?
Re: the WOW continues ... [message #32116 is a reply to message #32088 ] Fri, 05 August 2011 15:07 UTC Go to previous messageGo to next message
avatar nancyliang  is currently offline nancyliang
Messages: 155
Registered: January 2011
Go to my shop
Senior Member
I work here
Not sure yet about the design rules. One issue is that while it is possible to print down to 1.5mm, the handling cost would increase. We've subsidized this handling in the past by raising prices on all models... but I feel like that is unfair to people who design structures that are strong enough to begin with.

Also, I understand that some people have received items that feel strong enough for 1.5mm, but remember that even if you get a strong piece at the end, that is not representative of the entire process--there are parts of the process where the model is significantly weaker than the end result.



Product Manager
Twitter: @nliang
Re: the WOW continues ... [message #32302 is a reply to message #32116 ] Mon, 08 August 2011 21:37 UTC Go to previous message
avatar macouno  is currently offline macouno
Messages: 113
Registered: April 2008
Go to my shop
Senior Member
That's great news, thanks Nancy.

It's good to see that you're trying to push this print technology. I strongly believe that full colour is the future... maybe not this printer/material... but full colour definitely. It's sad that it is quite far behind the other materials in detail/strength... Once it reaches that point I think the potential is huge.

 
   
Previous Topic:The Winged Angel Knight V2 Necklaces arrived
Next Topic:Cake Topper

Logo

Hello.

We're sorry to inform you that we no longer support this browser and can't confirm that everything will work as expected. For the best Shapeways experience, please use one of the following browsers:

Click anywhere outside this window to continue.